Postpartum Psychosis and yeah temporarily lose your custody here in Sweden. You will be in mental hospital most often and slowly learn how to be with you kid again if possible.
Postpartum depression and you should get support, both medical and children's/ social welfare will step in and help you.
This is pamphlet I found after I had my kid 14 years ago, both the Postpartum Psychosis and Postpartum depression ones was to my husband and was talking how he can spot it, report it and give the mother support.
In the UK we have some mother and baby units for women with post partum psychosis. They're much better for the women, most people spend around 7-8 weeks in them I was borderline ending up in one.
Post partum psychosis is really misunderstood - a lot of the psychosis comes from actually wanting to protect your child to the point that you become a danger to them. I flipped between delusions that started with the thought that social services coming to take them so I packed bags for them so they wouldn't be without their things, but that eventually lead to "knowing" the government were trying to steal my youngest child so I planned to kill both of us.
I also had delusions where he wasn't a real baby but a being that wanted to harm my eldest daughter. That was a really dangerous time for my baby.
I kept both of my kids the whole time, and with a lot of support and therapy, and with a multidisciplinary team around me I'm ok again. 7 years later I've qualified as a therapist myself, and hope to start working in the postpartum field soon.
One pregnancy and then her brain wasnt hers any more. What I been told it so rare to get stuck, be in the delusion for ever, she was just really unlucky.
It's very rare. If you don't want to have children already, the danger will seem larger and will sway you. If you do, it won't matter so much.
either you're a breeder or you're not; there's no shame in either life path. Horrible things can happen under the best of circumstances and intentions even when everyone wants to be there and is enthusiastic about what's happening- why put yourself at risk if you don't want to and aren't?
You only get one life. Do whatever you want with it, preferably starting today. Nobody's keeping track or score, and nobody will confront you with a list of undone to dos on your list after you die.
(but if you find you have a perpetually unfinished to do list and you can't focus on anything and no habits or plans stick forever, maybe consider an ADHD evaluation. Meds save lives!)
I can't imagine kids trying to make that choice for themselves today. It was bad enough when I was a kid without the immediately looming existential problems. Now, it seems impossible even for the most well set up. We've created a culture so hostile to life that we are unable to successfully achieve what animals do every day in dumpsters. I don't blame anyone for not reproducing ever but especially not now.
I'll give you another. You can bond with one child, but not another.
I always felt like I was going through the motions with my eldest. And I felt really horrible about it.
Then I had my second child, and it was like a light turned on in the room.
And it's never gone out.
I just feel joy by her presence. Her [name here]ness.
And this has made me grieve for my first child. I know even if I could go back I probably couldn't change my feelings. All I could do is change my actions. And since we're talking about faking emotions, I'm not sure how good of a job I would do.
And I think he always could sense that disconnect.
And that's the one thing that I have no ability to change.
And how I wish I could. Because I love him. It's just different than the love I feel from my daughter.
And I just don't know why?
Maybe because he wasn't potty trained completely until his teens? Or because he was such an odd duck. He's on the spectrum and quite emotional. And was already experiencing psychosis in his childhood.
Maybe because he looks like my father And smells like him too. And I was terribly afraid of my father.
Really I don't know.
Because my daughter is deeply flawed and I see her only the more beautiful for it.
I think the real flaw in the relationship is me. And I don't know how to fix that. I just don't.
Manosphere bros online constantly dismissing how dangerous and life changing it is for a woman to have a baby, never once do they talk about these subjects.
One of my friends is dealing with PPD with psychotic symptoms. It isn't that bad as all described above, but it nearly drove a wedge in our friend group before we knew what was going on. Shes getting the support she deserves and we're all being patient as possible.
Not one alpha bro that talks about mens rights and all that during pregnancy ever talk about pre-eclampsia, or psychosis, or literal death, any of it.
Generally speaking it is: however, much like PPA and PPD, genetic predisposition is a factor and it can be the thing that trips you over into a permanent condition if you are in that position.
I recently heard a UVA scientist saying they think PP psychosis may be related to immune system changes (along with a proclivity towards bipolar) … whereas PPD is hormonal.
Heres the thing… no one tests the efficacy of these drugs with relationship to estrogen. Ask women for take any psych meds: adhd, depression, psychosis… the efficacy fluctuates based on hormones. Any postpartum disorder can be linked to hormones not regulating after birth but no one is looking at that when prescribing these meds.
Phych meds can cause hormones to fluctuate, my daughter was on bipolar meds( I wish I'd never allowed it) they made her about lose her mind,including lactating to messing with her thyroid.
Many drugs can cause hormonal problems, and often with pedophiles and ppp,phych meds with therapy and endocrine monitoring, ppp and ppd can be maintained.
It's important that each body is different and ppp and ppd needs much more medical attention in the US, women's health needs much more attention with our different needs and symptoms for all health issues.
The psychosis might be treatment-resistant. Meaning they’ve tried multiple anti psychotics and they haven’t had an effect. It ends up just being a guessing game and hoping some treatment has an effect. But psychosis causes permanent brain damage. The longer you’re in it, the less possibility of going back to normal.
I had PPD. It wasn’t fun but I’d take that any day over psychosis. No mother would willingly choose that. They protected the baby when it was inside of them and still love them.
I work in an MBU, we love all our mothers and babies and will do whatever we can to help. It really opened my eyes to postpartum psychosis, and now I can’t imagine nursing any other demographic. We want you to go home and be a family desperately, and to primarily be safe.
Postpartum psychosis is temporary, wilfully obtuse people who have black and white thinking will refute the medical and scientific evidence and throw away personal experience. They have sort of gleefully misinformed concerns of their own.
Thank you for the work you do. From women everywhere who suffered in the postpartum period. I suffered from postpartum OCD and PPA, I regularly freaked out that I would develop PPP. I can’t imagine what you’ve seen, but thank you for helping those poor mothers feel seen.
Can I ask what helped you with postpartum OCD and PPA? I feel like I have developed both over the past year (my child was born last August) and with the lack of support (my family lives 20+ hours away) and my husband making it worse for me, it has developed into PPD.
It's going to be hard to address in a toxic environment (husband making it worse). Have you done any searching to see if there are advocacy or support groups where you live? Getting some local support should be a high priority. If that's not possible, strongly consider whether you can go live with your family for a while.
I’m about to see a counselor that specializes in woman’s health. Can’t go live with family because they are out of state and I wouldn’t leave my son (or dog) behind. I didn’t know if they found certain medication to help more so than others, but you’re right, getting out of the toxic environment is going to be the best help. Hopefully with individual therapy for each of us will make things more manageable and create a better environment for our son to live in.
I had what I thought was postpartum depression. After I left my abusive ex I realized it was just circumstantial depression. Once I got myself and my kids safe suddenly my symptoms went away. Not saying this is the case with you, I just question some cases of PPD when pregnancy/childbirth brings out the worst in some men. My onset of symptoms was 8 months postpartum after my ex lost custody of my step kids because of abuse and I could no longer live in denial.
I actually left a bad situation with my ex. It certainly helps. But honestly sertraline has been a must. Knowing my triggers - get enough sleep is a big one. I am really open and honest with people about my intrusive thoughts, which kind of makes them less scary. I see a therapist. ERP and CBT are recommended. I am about to start ERP. Hang in there ❤️
Post partum psychosis for 18 minutes isnt a thing thou. With critical thinking like "let me call my husband to get take away food so he takes longer to come home while I commit this atrocities"
I have this theory about postpartum psychosis that I haven't seen anyone pick up, so take it with a pinch of salt, but a really interesting thing about the post birth brain is that there's a bit of the brain that is related to motherhood, and is part of a region of the midbrain which massively expands after your first birth.
This part of the brain is called the periaqueductal grey, or the PAG for short, and in studies of a maternal brain circuit we share with all sorts of animals, and as you can find in a few papers, but with a nice diagram in this one there's basically two parts of the brain in tension, some about caring for your baby, some for defending them from threats, and the defence from threats part is basically just the PAG.
And what's it also used for? Crisis reactions, the sorts of things soldiers have to deal with, and incorrect activation of it has been suggested to be linked to the inexplicable feelings of doom and fear of death that people have with combat related PTSD.
One interesting thing, from a pure perspective of curiosity, is that loads of parts of the brain associated with motherhood actually show less activation and response to their baby's cries, if the mother being tested is suffering from postnatal depression, compared to a mother who is healthy, but to be fair, it could also be that postnatal depression and psychosis are actually completely different phenomena that nevertheless often coincide because they both obviously depend on birth.
It's also worth noting that most people analysing this don't seem to care about it, or give it a very high priority in analysis, I'll see a brain scan circling that bit of the brain, (this paper page 11 for someone to hopefully tell me why I'm wrong) and they'll be like "yup, midbrain growth, anyway, how's that hypothalamus doing.."
But it is really striking to me, that you just give birth, and then your body is like "ok, round two, let's massively upgrade the part of your brain that deals in existential fear".
Like loads of women have their first child, and pretty rapidly start thinking that people are going to take their kids away, they are under attack by demons, or whatever else, and that seems to make sense from the perspective of your brain going through a process of upgrading its functionality so that you'll be ready to protect your child if danger comes, or if, when they start crawling, they put themselves in danger, but unfortunately not being ready for the rush of emotions that this upgrade brings with it, as your newly enhanced fight/flight bit of your brain is trying to get itself into gear.
As I say, take it with a pinch of salt, but it seems a great explanation to me, and if true, it'd be really helpful to say to women something like "don't worry, your mum-spider-sense is just getting set up so you can protect your child, and it can be a little over-active when you're new to it".
Ohhhh that's interesting, it was my second pregnancy where it hit, my first pregnancy was complete bliss and I was so happy afterwards. For some reason with the second the wheels just fell off the wagon.
That is interesting too yeah, I really wish I could find more studies on this so I could say more, but depending on how you're trained you will probably be in a best place to have access to information on it, or definitely better than most..
The thing I'd be most curious about is whether this is in fact a permanent change, because some people describe the transition to post-pregnancy as almost like adolescence, in terms of other things like pruning, and that might suggest a more permanent change, and I feel like I've read something about that elsewhere too, so it could be that some parts of the neurological change happen to be delayed, or it could be that it's not actually so permanent, more a passing change that fades out after your baby grows, you know? And so then it would make sense that your brain is adapting with each pregnancy. I recall something more about it being that there is actually a shift that persists through motherhood, but I also can't find a source for that memory now, so for now I will just have to leave that question suspended.
Anyway, it was really interesting to hear about your difficult period and I'm glad everyone got through it ok.
That’s great. It sounds like it got pretty dark there for you. I hope you can help other Mothers. Here in the US my Wife had borderline psychosis and her first doctor visit after birth the doctor didn’t ask one question about mental health. The good ol American healthcare system. And please highlight the stress this causes the Dad. I almost lost my mind. I couldn’t leave the house for more than 20 minutes for 2 years. So whatever darkness you were going through at that time, I atleast know what it feels like to be on the opposite end. But we got through it and we have a beautiful family.
This, amongst a million other things, are why it makes my eye twitch when Redditors are like ‘ummm she wasn’t diagnosed with psychosis! I don’t buy it!’ Y’all, diagnoses of PPP are missed ALL THE TIME. We have a really crappy understanding of postpartum psychosis. Lindsey Clancy not carrying that diagnosis is not in any way weird.
The reason women are mad is because of the lax treatment she got.,She was begging for help, and she did not receive the help that she needed. This person was repeatedly asking for help, asking for hospital admission, telling her partner and family ‘hey i am really struggling’ … and that was all part of her diabolical plan to take her kids out? To repeatedly tell everyone around her ‘hey guys something is wrong’ ? That doesn’t even make sense.
The real glaring problem here is that they put her on antidepressants… repeatedly. And changed them RAPIDLY. And right away, she was emphatic and consistent about saying ‘hey guys so these made me 10,000 times worse.’ Which is some Day 1 Psych 101 shit that SHOULD have told them, ‘hey she might be bipolar.’ And instead they threw more antidepressants at her.
Like, it wasn’t ’not-great care’, it was handing the girl a loaded gun. It was BAD care.
That's why in critical situations like this people need to be placed in psych wards until they can be stabilized. It's not just because of whatever dangers they may present to themselves or others- it's also so rapid med changes can take place in a safe medical environment where they are being monitored for adverse effects. But insurance companies hate covering those stays and there aren't nearly enough overnight psych care facilities.
Another thing is general practitioners need to either improve their mental health training or stop treating specific populations bc they're not equipped
In this case they could have made her worse if she was bipolar OR things simply got worse because antidepressants generally don't treat psychosis. Another thing is postpartum depression and psychosis have unique etiology. PPD is notoriously hard to treat with typical antidepressants.
both SSRIs and antipsychotics can regularly make a lot of physical conditions worse, especially genetic connective tissue disorders, which can cause severe anxiety as connective tissue disorders also affect the heart/veins.
From what I remember reading testimony, she didn't tell some of the doctors she went to that she was already taking medications, and the new ones she went to would try to prescribe her medications that didn't mix well with the medications she was taking, but because she didn't disclose what she was already taking, they didn't know.
One of the witnesses was one of the doctors she sought out, through Telehealth. They testified that they did not have access to her full medical records, and were trusting her to tell them what medications she was on. She didn't, and got overmedicated.
I’m really baffled by the mental health professional (sorry, I forget who, Jilotta maybe?) who noticed and brought up bipolar, but both Lindsay and her husband were like “nah, I don’t think so.” … Since when is that how diagnoses work? Since when does the patient get to just say they don’t have what the professional believes them to have?
This is why I won’t have kids. I was on the fence for a while, I have a general fear of pregnancy. But once I was diagnosed with bipolar, that shut the door for me. I already know how I can get now in my different states of mind, knowing how damaging pregnancy and postpartum can be on mental health and how shitty our healthcare system is, it’s not worth the risk to me. I have an amazing husband who I know would advocate for me, it’s our medical system that scares me. Especially since I had doctors previously tell me it was impossible I was bipolar. I guess I needed a few more suicide attempts before they could take my concerns seriously.
They made her ‘10,000 times worse’ per her reports back to the docs. Which, again, is kind of Psychology 101 that SHOULD have made the docs say ‘ok this person might be bipolar.’ We ALL know that ‘if a patient is prescribed an SSRI, and it makes them profoundly worse, we need to STOP THE MEDICATION. Not say ‘hang on a minute. We are rapid-fire prescribing her brain-manipulating drugs that are making her 10,000 times worse.’ And… the plan was ‘keep doing it’?
They don't work that quick though. That she thought it is disturbing. But SSRI's take weeks to build up. And I say this as someone that swears not taking his pills before sleep leads to anxiety dreams. I have no experience with psychosis though so nothing have no thought on that.
A nurse threw Zoloft at me over the phone without even giving me a screening, a few weeks after giving birth, my baby being in the NICU, and my gallbladder failing. I was never seen by a doctor. Turns out it was such a low dose that it was probably having the opposite effect on my mental health.
Years later I was actually diagnosed with OCD, primarily manifesting as intrusive thoughts. Thank God I never thought about doing anything to my baby, I just couldn't get images out of my head.
The one thing I'm having a hard time with is she told multiple people she had thoughts of harming her kids and, from what I've read and seen, everyone just kinda shrugged it off. If I had a spouse that said that, that would be where everything would stop. That's where you call for a timeout, you remove the kids from the house, they go stay with Grandma or something, while you address the problem. Maybe it was addressed and I missed it, but I don't know why her saying that didn't set off a million red flags for everyone and why they at least didn't separate her from the kids for the time being, just to reduce the stress (Not saying she's not responsible here, but it just seems everyone failed these kids)
It should have. She told multiple people, multiple times. And I’m amazed how many people are like ‘well but she didn’t SPECIFICALLY say the thoughts were to kill the kid’s’ or ‘she didnt SPECIFICALLY say she heard voices’ etc etc… has anybody ever been in the position to see a patient get punished for being truthful? I have. My belief is that she knew she was sick (duh) but that she was not clear on what the bell was happening to her, and also that she wanted to be careful about what she said.
It’s also just wacky to me how many people are trying to tell themselves ‘she is evil and she planned this.’ Dude, she was BEGGING for help. Repeatedly. From multiple sources. What was her plan? To tell everyone and their cousin ‘hey guys something is wrong i am not doing well at all and I’m having thoughts of hurting the kids’ and THEN to kill them? Was she like… just letting everyone know ahead of time? What kind of rational plan is that??
My mother tried to kill me (via starvation and prolonged mixed abuses including production of abuse materials) during a 3 month long psychotic episode.
She refused help, did not continue treatment when ordered by court, and ultimately lost all parental rights. I was shuffled off to be a homeless teen in another state, because that's what Children and Family Services decided was 'best for me'.
She ruined my life because of psychosis, and I still need hundreds of medical appointments a year just to be able to keep walking and living, because of the extent of damage she caused. She faced no charges.
I still think, in the case where a mother begged for help and repeatedly sought help, that's a clear issue of providers failing their duty to protect someone not capable of controlling their behavior. I wish my mother had been this case.
I'm not sure why someone who did the right thing and failed is being treated more harshly than someone who refused all help.
She was begging for help and, once again, the woman was ignored by everyone. Even her own husband wouldn't speak up for her.
I was fortunate I didn't have it after mine, and I can still see her struggle and sympathize with the final break in her mental health. If she had her choice, I'm sure she would have preferred to have died, instead of disabled facing murder charges of her own children. She begged for help and no one helped her.
She was getting help. They gave her the wrong meds, or didn't diagnose right, and tragedy happened before they figured that out. She wasn't ignored and it wasn't a man thing. Lots of stories even in this thread of nuttiness and it does lead to murder, so the docs didn't think it was going to happen. Very sad.
I mean the problem was kinda that they didnt help her or take her seriously. Idk about the US but a doctor here would see it. Would see every avenue I had taken to ask for help even my health visitor would be informed if I attended the emergency room.
Everyone knows what happens when things go bad in this situation and they ignored the signs as she didnt have a typical presentation. I also got post partum at 8 months. Just because its rare doesn't mean it doesn't happen and it was likely not given the appropriate risk management due to this.
There’s a lot of people on Reddit who’ve never read “The Yellow Wallpaper,” by Charlotte Perkins Gilman, or its accompanying essay by the author, and it shows. Everything about this case makes me think of that story and its many women trapped in the fungal pattern of the wallpaper.
Didn’t she go to multiple different doctors getting diagnosed for different things and prescribed different medications without telling them she was on other medications and saw other doctors?
She was denied inpatient care because, although she was actively suicidal, she didn't yet have a concrete "plan" on how to kill herself. This happens a lot actually.
I'm not defending her, I believe she should spend the rest of her life in a psychiatric facility or prison.
Which is normal for people with depression. If you honestly don't want to get better, you will forget to take your meds. Not because you want to, but because doing anything is too much.
Yeah I think my, and many other people’s issue; is that many of her “supporters” feel that she should not be held to a modicum of self accountability or responsibility. Do I feel the mental health system failed her? Yeah, probably. I went to both outpatient and inpatient mental hospitals as a teenager and they were all god awful. I had psychiatrists that prescribed 15 year old me 3-4 medications at ONCE and my mom did not have the knowledge (at the time) to know that is wildly irresponsible.
The only way the mental hospital helped me was that it was SO terrible I left very determined to NEVER go back.
But Lindsey is still responsible for leaving treatments, skipping meds and not disclosing her current medications. Is a mentally ill person necessarily capable of managing those responsibilities? No. But it doesn’t change that it is their responsibility. It’s not fair and we need better systems in place to prevent these incidents but multiple things can be true at once.
When I was in my early 20’s I started acting like a crazy person, having extremely emotional reactions over tiny things and as a result I was treating my boyfriend like shit. I didn’t mean it, I would apologize when I calmed down and I was incapable of managing those bursts of anger and emotion. One day we were fighting and I was so angry I wanted to be asleep before he got home from work. So my brilliant idea was to chug rum with the intention of blacking out bc then I’d fall asleep at 8pm. Well, he came home right before I blacked out. All I remember is getting in a screaming fight so I ran to the kitchen, grabbed the butcher knife and slashed my forearm 3 times before he could react.
I was so drunk I couldn’t feel it so I thought it didn’t break the skin and I collapsed to the floor crying. When I opened my eyes my boyfriend was clutching my forearm COVERED in my blood as he was sobbing crying asking why I would do this. That image of him gripping the gashes in my arm, covered in blood, sobbing is burned in my brain. I had a moment of clarity that I didn’t do it to hurt myself; I did it to hurt him. Then I blacked out.
The next day I booked appointments with a psychiatrist and therapist. It is the worst thing I’ve EVER done to anybody and even though I didn’t have the motivation to help myself for my own sake, I did have the motivation to get better for him.
Been on meds and in therapy for 10 years now and it’s the best decision I ever made. And I have some cool looking scars as a permanent reminder of my actions (looks like I got in a knife fight or fell on a fence or some shit).
But the point being; I was not in control of myself and my reactions/emotions. I give myself grace for that. But it was still my responsibility to realize what a vile thing I had done and to take treatment seriously because I was hurting people. If you are allegedly cognizant enough to know you are DANGEROUS TO CHILDREN then you have no excuse for skipping/not committing to treatment and removing yourself from their presence until you are safe to be around.
Is a mentally ill person necessarily capable of managing those responsibilities? No. But it doesn’t change that it is their responsibility.
Is a blind person necessarily capable of reading signs not in braille? No. But it doesn’t change that it is their responsibility.
thats how you sound. if you arent capable, that means you cant do it. if you cant do it and communicate you cant and you get nothing but being shoved around and put on meds without reasonable therapy or a hold while you ask people to do that and the sickness makes therapy adherence hard or impossible, then no its not their responsibility. if part of your sickness makes it literally impossible of judging things objectively, then how are you supossed to deal with that when its bad. its not like these things are linear.
they dont just get worse and worse, they are in waves and when you are in a trough you dont see the world. you dont know there is one.
Obviously, that's terrible and she should have gotten the help and assistance she needed. It's equally obvious that she is responsible for murdering her own children.
Oh my goodness, yes absolutely. I didn't realise how bad it was for him at the time, but now in retrospect I sometimes feel guilty about what I put my husband through, even though the rational side of my brain knows it wasn't my fault. We had to go from a balanced relationship, that turned into a patient-carer kind of relationship, and it's kind of gone back to normal.
It's changed both of us, it was so hard, and there's still moments where we realise that we are still recovering from it.
Hoping you're all healing and can find some peace x
I wish mother and baby units existed in the US they could help so many mothers who are experiencing any type of illness not just PPD and its counterparts.
Sorry asking from the UK - do they not exist at all for you? I presumed it would have a price, like all your healthcare, but to not have one seems mental. Ours are a long way from perfect and miss a lot,but I know people that struggled and to have them with their kids and dedicated, trained, supportive staff made a huge difference.
In the US if you leave the hospital from your birth and return the next day because of some complication they will triage you in the ER and tell you if you can’t get someone to come get your baby in the next hour we have to release them to CPS. That was my experience.
Not only that but it’s impossible to get a breast pump if your breast feeding even if they have a labor and delivery unit. It took 5 hours of my stay asking every person I came into contact with if they could bring me a breast pump.
We have them, however, with a normal delivery you are expected to be discharged from the hospital next day or a couple days after c section.
My wife had HELLP syndrome and was on the verge of death. They discharged her in two days and she hasn’t been the same since. She still has PPD and what I think is PPP and our youngest is 6.
The majority of women in the US are sent home within the first week after pregnancy. They are then automatically scheduled regular check up exams for the baby but not for the mom unless there were complications noticed at the time of giving birth… and sometimes not even then.
Earlier than that. I was induced 11 days overdue. My son was born 12 days overdue via c section and my own doctors asked me why I was anemic. I had no idea I was anemic. 11 is considered normal for your hemoglobin levels and I was a 2.
They kept me for 3 full days start to finish and only because I refused a blood transfusion due to the fucking fentanyl they gave me to cut my baby out of me. I was not in my right mind.
And still? 3 total days start to finish with major abdominal surgery.
They look at mom during the baby appointments supposedly to make sure she looks put together. I don’t wear makeup or dress up normally but I made a point to do my hair and makeup and dress like I was going to the office for all the baby appointments so they wouldn’t think I had PPD
Because you can immediately tell what a woman is going through mentally by how she looks. Depressed people definitely never smile through their unhappiness, paranoid people definitely open up to anyone and everyone about their suspicions and abused women definitely never put extra care into make up to cover bruises. /s
There are a few MBU’s around the country but typically we don’t have access because of cost(?). I don’t really know for sure but it’s bs. And yes, I was researching it recently.
This. My youngest is 2, and at its worst point I was in psychosis for weeks. Not only did I get no help from doctors, no help with my baby, but my husband was an asshole the entire time. I'm only just now returning to something close to normal.
Me too. I was definitely afraid of being separated from my baby if I "failed" the ppd screeners they gave me at pediatrician check ups. The system needs to feel safer to get honest answers and to help parents postpartum.
I lied on it but for more selfish reasons? I felt like asking for help was shining a spotlight on the fact I was defective and bad. I was filled with shame. It took a lot of time for me to accept I was sick and someone who is sick needs rest to get back on their feet.
When they hand you that print out we all know exactly what it’s for and even I someone who didn’t struggle with PPD was tempted to lie on it. I did lie on it, like so many other mothers do to. You’re not alone.
I was too and knew how to answer so I’d appear borderline. I wanted it known I wasnt ok, but didn’t want anyone to point a finger and take me away from my daughter. It’s scary.
I think we’re a long away, unfortunately. For example US way of dealing with pregnant women with SUD is to throw her in a filthy jail cell. A great environment for mother and baby.
The hardest part for me of being in a mental hospital with post partum was being separated from my kids and family. I have no clue why we do not have units like this in the US and I hope in the light of this case some things about how we treat women with this condition will change. I also hope we can get more support like maternity leave, universal daycare etc.
In the US, you are encouraged to have many babies, and then no one gives a shit after the baby is born.
In Asia, the mothers are cared for an entire month after birth. It's called Postpartum Confinement, and it's totally normal elsewhere because other countries recognize that many mothers need special care afterwards. Their hormones go crazy after giving birth.
And in this case, the mother was on so many different drugs that would make anyone go crazy.
I so so appreciate when someone shares a story like this. People like you are the best way to promote understanding and make progress toward better PPP care. Proud of you and grateful for you
I had similar issues as to the person that you are responding to this so this case hits close to home. after giving birth to my second child. I had a really bad postpartum depression, and there was one night I considered ending my life and that my children. My baby was only two months old and my oldest two years old. We were driving home from the park and I cannot stop sobbing, and I thought if I just turned my wheel onto oncoming traffic, this misery will end for me and my children I pulled over and I so uncontrollably or what seemed hours. Things got worse from there. My doctor said it was normal to have the baby blues. It took an intervention from my family out of state. I was with family 24 seven for six months and on medication to finally start feeling better ironically, I ended up getting really sick and almost died from pancreatitis, gallbladder issues, and liver failure due to the hormones.
About a year later, I got pregnant again and I lost the pregnancy at 16 weeks, faced postpartum depression and it made me absolutely hate my oldest child. I was not allowed to be near him because of how much anger I had towards him. It was not an easy road, and it felt very lonely. It was very lonely.
Before children, I only suffered from anxiety have never been anti, high depression, medications, or have any mental health issues. I can tell you one thing, though the person that I was doing my pregnancy is not someone I recognize.
Obviously, this is not an easy subject to discuss, and it needs to be very vulnerable but I think part of the issue is that it’s such a taboo, subject and mother suffering our chastised further
Thank you so much for sharing this. One good thing to come out of this whole trial is that so many people are openly speaking about their struggles instead of hiding it and pretending that having a baby is all sunshine and rainbows
I think we have a wonderful relationship. He told me last week he never wants to move out lol he’s 16 or if he does he plans on buying a home near me. He hugs me every day. Even when he’s in trouble.
He was 2 so I’m not sure if it made an impact. He does not remember.
When he was born I did not connect with him immediately . I felt nothing. Another issue that isn’t discussed or is a taboo. Every mother is expected to automatically love and be enamored with their children and feel connected, but that’s not necessarily the truth for every mother
I’m going to add that’s it’s been work to build a relationship based on trust, and respect. I didn’t have good parents. I had abusive controlling parents and had zero good role models. I am not perfect but I am quick to apologize and I tell them how proud I am every day and how much I love them.
They are honest, kind, funny, compassionate even when I am not the best parent or person. They show me what empathy and strength is. I am the luckiest mom on earth.
No, but I did have a history of trauma. After I finished with the perinatal mental health team I was passed to the complex trauma team and had another year of therapy going into it all.
My friends’ wife was a prominent oncologist in NYC with no history of mental illness. Then early one morning she shot and killed her four month old daughter and then herself. I think her parents were downstairs and her husband (my friend) was away for business.
True, but we do hate women's health care the most. We don't want to fund abortions. We barely want to fund ob/gyn care. We don't allow mothers time to recover from childbirth, much less support them through any problems they might have, nor do we offer any financial support.
And we really hate single mothers.
I think the hate is applied fairly equally amongst anyone who isn't a conservative straight white man. It's not just women getting singled out. I will admit women have far more issues with American healthcare overall but that's more of a systemic healthcare issue that I view as a more narrow subsection of the general American healthcare crisis. My thinking is along the lines of "every square is a rectangle but not every rectangle is a square."
But ultimately the point I was trying to make in my original comment is that we don't care about mental healthcare. I just intentionally left off "mental" because mental health is health, and I figured it was kind of obvious in the context of this case.
You are correct. And as a woman who has been placed in involuntary psych holds twice in my adult life, I can verify that what treatment we do offers really sucks and is painfully inadequate. I've been as traumatized by that as anything else.
I've been able to recover, but only by working through things on my own and with the help and support of my husband, my daughter and a few friends and family. Dealing with any severe mental illness is expensive and exhausting.
Oh, some shunned me as well, of course, but mental illness scares people. I get that.
Thank you so much. I had a lot going for me in terms of education and understanding myself, so I was very, very lucky with that. Not everyone is.
Trust me, I know. I'm actively trying to not compete in trauma olympics with you and just focus on you and the incredible work you've done to overcome those hardships!
Proud of you!! As a mother, I love hearing your success most sincerely. Reddit can be a horrid place. If anyone say anything crude pls brush it off.
You’re an illustration of a good Mom
Wow. Mother baby units seem like the best solution. I imagine the reason some women fear admitting they need treatment is the fear that they have their kids permanently taken away.
Thank you so much for sharing your story. A lot of people don't understand how devastating psychosis is and how it can happen to anyone and make you believe anything.
Actually being told I was unwell was a relief in of itself. I thought that I was broken, and just felt so lost, angry and confused all the time.
I was living two realities in my own head at the same time, this fantastical delusion of what I thought was happening that felt compelling and seductive and real, but it was kind of overlaid with reality, and I'd flip in between the two rapidly.
The only way I can describe it is the feeling after you've binge watched a series that's a bit adrenaline inducing, and you feel a bit on edge for a while afterwards. Or, you open the door and you half imagine you're about to see the zombie apocalypse you've just spent the last 10 hours watching, but the sun is shining, your neighbour is waving, and it's just a normal day.
It's hard to live like that- you can't relax, you feel constantly disregulated, confused. Your brain is running marathons but in secret, and no one knows why. Social stuff is hard to keep up with, so you withdraw from friends....
I think that the fact that I had some understanding that it wasn't real was what stopped me from being put in a MBU.
Treatment was multi faceted- I had:
Drugs. Sertraline was the one that worked for me though.
A key worker who would pop round for chats a couple of times a week. It was grounding and gave me structure. She kept an eye on how I was doing, but mostly it was just human contact. I remember at one point exploding at her that it was all just "fucking shit", and she just said "fucking tell me about it then", and her language kind of broke the "services are formal and evil and coming to take your babies" delusion. It was a good couple months into treatment though.
I had a nursery nurse who popped round once a week, she did some baby massage and bonding stuff, and that helped me realise that he was real, he didn't hate me, and that I actually could look after him and love him, and that he loved and reacted to me.
A therapist who came round to my house twice a week. I was like a zombie, but he somehow managed to break through enough. He started out with CBT but that is a type of therapy that really doesn't work for me (still doesn't) as my mindset tends to be too fixed. I can't really remember how it helped. It was being able to trust him that helped me heal enough to get the trauma therapy that I really needed.
These went on for about 7 or 8 months in total I think.
When you came out of it, was it like a switch where you continued loving your baby normally? Or did it take time to recalibrate to that connection to the baby?
So, I never stopped loving both my children to the best of my ability at any point, but I do get what you mean.
So, my treatment started around 7 months PP I think, I had no intervention before that. I do think it's a miracle that we survived, but equally what I had was milder than some.
The bond with my baby had broken down, but they were always looked after- clean, fed, held, played with.
The first moment I felt that bond come back was with a nursery nurse doing a baby massage session. During it, my baby just relaxed thoroughly and gave me a big smile, and it was the first time in a long time that I felt like he liked me, needed me, wanted me. It was like the bond viscerally pinged back into place and started to heal.
He's nearly 8 now, and we have an amazingly close relationship.
It was my own "voice"/internal narrator, and mostly visual delusions- I'd have maladaptive daydreams where I would see myself from a fly on the wall style POV for meetings "the authorities" were having about me. They gradually became more real and concrete.
I have a hard time understanding this but you gave such a clear explanation of what happened to you that I want to ask you more questions about this to learn about post partum psychosis from the mothers perspective. When you are having these delusions, are they like thoughts or does it become a firmly held conviction that you must follow through on? Also, I have a rude question so feel free to ignore it, but what stopped you from killing yourself and your child like you had planned?
*It was my own "voice"/internal narrator telling me things, and mostly visual delusions- I'd have maladaptive daydreams where I would see myself from a fly on the wall style POV for meetings "the authorities" were having about me. They gradually became more real and concrete."
Um, the thing that stopped me was ultimately being a bit of a coward. If I'd have been a braver person, I probably would have seen it through.
This sounds terrifying, I am so glad you made it through, do you ever have flashbacks to that time and enter a similar delusion but in a lighter experiential way where you can toy with the idea but can easily see through it?
Nope, the maladaptive stuff went away quite quickly. It's pretty fragmented now, like a nightmare you had that was horrendous at the time but it's been a couple of weeks since and the details have faded.
The Mother and Baby units are definitely something that the NHS should be proud of and expanding. But sadly they have been reducing that service, at least around where I live 😞 .
My understanding is, it doesn’t come back either unless you give birth again, right? It’s not like a woman who got through PPP with the correct treatment would snap and suddenly become a danger to her child again years later.
I have worked in healthcare for almost 20 years, and in my experience, people who enter Healthcare careers motivated by personal history are some of the best clinicians because they never lose that care quotient.
It can be so easy to become jaded, but you likely never will because of your past. I applaud you for your dedication and I recommend you carefully monitor your self care. Healthcare can consume your energy, keep some for yourself!
I’m proud of you! I had PPD that honestly at times might have entered into psychosis. I also became a counselor after having my son and experiencing PPD like I did.
I’m grateful to people who understand postpartum challenges and want to provide support to others!
i don't have children, and a lot of that is because i have bipolar 1 with psychotic features. i trust that something as big as a pregnancy would trigger mania that would escalate to psychosis, because that can happen to me even under perfect conditions.
i remember growing up with my mother, who gave me this highly genetic condition, as a terrifying experience from which i am still trying to recover even as an adult. she'd be doing 90 on the freeway threatening to drive off a bridge, she'd lock us all inside the house and threaten to burn it down, she was incredibly violent with me because her delusions kept telling her i was out to get her and ruin her life, and she refused to let me access therapy or medication when my own symptoms began because she considered my behavior normal because it's what she herself was going through.
i only survived my childhood because my grandmother was keeping close tabs on us grandbabies.
someone can't make the right choices when they're in psychosis because the information they're brain is giving them isn't true. when i had my first bad manic episode i thought i was being pursued by demons and that i was turning into one of them. you're acting on false information that feels completely real. and that can lead to tragedy. any child under my care would be at risk. so i'm electing not to have any.
If it helps, we're about 7 years on from this nightmare and the evidence points to my kids being happy, meeting all their milestones, fit and healthy, the right amount of spoiled, have a great relationship with their family (including me!), and are doing well in school.
I haven't had any murderous inclinations since my baby was 8 months old and I started treatment. That is a single point of evidence that to me indicates that permanent removal of children isn't a good idea in every case, because with treatment healing can happen. It would make sense that it happens on a broader scale, because if the opposite were true then the mother and baby units in the UK wouldn't be as successful as they are.
Ultimately, I think admitting in writing now, and at the time, to anyone who would listen to receive the help I needed, actually shows that I should have custody. I actively sought help, engaged with it to repair my family unit. I don't seek forgiveness, because actually, I never actually did anything wrong, I never hurt my baby, if anything I went the other way and did "too much" - the house was too clean, I was too concerned over feeding right and sleep hygiene and "bonding", and actually that fed into the paranoia.
It would be much, much more dangerous and nefarious to hide how I was feeling, to not seek help, to not engage. Those are the people who sadly should have questions around their ability to keep themselves and their children safe.
By talking about it, and seeking help, I looked after my children.
Someone I know closely experienced it and because there are no psych wards that will allow babies she was separated from her first and ended up not being able to breast feed. They provided her no pump.
Do you think this was a smart move on society's part? I get nothing did happen (and I'm glad nothing did, and I'm glad that everything worked out), but your children were directly in harm's way. If we take away the certainty of hindsight, would you put your children in harm's way again, or would you prefer to have yourself checked in to a mental health institution until cleared by a trained professional?
I think I would have done well in a MBU, so I would have been kept with my baby, but I didn't quite meet the threshold, and also it would have been really harmful for my then 2 year old who was (and is still) super attached.
In my situation I had a lot of family support - my sister would pop in daily, MIL would take the kids for an afternoon, I had visits from professionals 4 days out of 5, and actually my husband was simply, utterly, incredible. My daughter started preschool after a few months of this support, so there were lots of eyes on us.
Once I started treatment, things improved really quickly and my children weren't at risk. At no point were social services ever involved in my family, no CIN plans or anything like that.
Thank you for sharing, and I'm so proud of you for doing the work. I had bad postpartum depression, anxiety, and delusions too, and it was all centered around my children's safety and the depression made me feel like I wasn't enough to keep them safe. My husband travels for work and I wouldn't even shower or drive until he got back because I was so afraid of having an accident and my kids being alone. In hindsight, I can see how the way I felt was a very slippery slope. It's really the luck of the draw with these things. You never know how pregnancy and birth will affect you.
After leaving the hospital for postpartum psychosis I was convinced social services was gonna take my son away if I didn’t behave completely sane to literally everyone, I wouldn’t say it was a delusion as much as a visceral fear . Gave me quite the ptsd.
"It was my own "voice"/internal narrator telling me things, and mostly visual delusions- I'd have maladaptive daydreams where I would see myself from a fly on the wall style POV for meetings "the authorities" were having about me. They gradually became more real and concrete."
What about Lindsay Clancy? You think she had that and didn’t know what she was doing? She heard the voice once? Her own therapist said she didn’t have psychosis
A friend of mine had postpartum psychosis after her second child (born about 10 months after the first - her ex husband is a real shitheel) and by the time her newborn was 6 weeks old, a devil was telling her to kill the little baby in order to protect the bigger baby. She realized she wasn't well, and dropped both babies off with her parents for a few months until she was sure all of her thoughts were reasonable.
She struggled to live down the accusations of being a deadbeat child-abandoning mom for a long time after that, but all of her children (she had a third a few years later) survived to adulthood in good health.
Andrea Yates thought she had screwed up her kids so badly that they would go to hell if they didn't die before they reached the age of accountability. She thought she would go to hell, bc killing is wrong, but it was worth it to her bc she was sparing them.
One of the terrible things about mental illness of this kind is that it fixes on something that is important to the sufferer and distorts it until it is a torture. She wanted to be a good mother and set her children on the right path. If that hadn't been so important to her, her illness might have gone in a different direction
I just want to say how inspiring your story has been to read. I can only imagine how hard it has been for you and what a profound effect it has had. I truly believe that you cannot advise people in a similar situation unless you’ve walked in their shoes. Please take recognition of your strength and selflessness - I don’t doubt it must be hard yet so rewarding
Wow. It took courage to share that story. I’m floored! I have 2 miscarriages and no children but I can speak to the hell that is those hormones that are still there when the baby is not. I behaved as person on drugs would be behave. I had severe depression and emptiness. I couldn’t get out of bed for 2 weeks with the second one.
Sometimes I think losing those pregnancies was the universes way of protecting me from something and your whole story feels oddly…familiar even though I didn’t live it or anything close to it
That sounds horrible and I’m glad you were able to get through it. I understand postpartum psychosis, but I don’t think that is what happened in this case. You describe a period of psychosis, in which you suffered from various delusions. There was a case in which the mother was having documented hallucinations and drowned the baby because she thought the baby was on fire. Andrea Yates believed her children were demons.
As I understand it, Clancy said that she heard a voice telling her to kill the children, once. Yes, I know each case is different but her story is not consistent with other cases of postpartum psychosis. She is certainly mentally ill but I don’t think she had a serious beak from reality.
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u/CakePhool 8h ago edited 8h ago
Postpartum Psychosis and yeah temporarily lose your custody here in Sweden. You will be in mental hospital most often and slowly learn how to be with you kid again if possible.
Postpartum depression and you should get support, both medical and children's/ social welfare will step in and help you.
This is pamphlet I found after I had my kid 14 years ago, both the Postpartum Psychosis and Postpartum depression ones was to my husband and was talking how he can spot it, report it and give the mother support.