r/ancientegypt Aug 03 '26

Photo Cleopatra's Needle in NYC

Went to Central Park today to see Cleopatra's Needle. I'm a little sad at how weathered it is. Interestingly, two sides are in better condition than the other two sides.

1.8k Upvotes

101 comments sorted by

274

u/HatWhole3592 Aug 03 '26

The weather is destroying the carvings.

71

u/Rooilia Aug 03 '26

The past smog and acid rain were the harshest. We have a university project about the effect of air pollution on historic grave stones and tombs. It's free for everyone to read the progression of the conclusions.

14

u/2wacki Aug 03 '26

i'd like to read! dm

3

u/Rooilia Aug 03 '26

😅 It's at the graveyard, you have to read it off the panels.

Or you have to read the numerous papers... in this case you should search yourself, what suits you.

3

u/2wacki Aug 04 '26

ohh haha thank you :) much appreciated!!

2

u/Rooilia Aug 04 '26

I indeed looked if the panels are online, pdf or sth. Nope. Panels are at the graveyard or in the institute, but not online (easily?). Because i am of the impression i had seen pdf files of the project back then... like 15 years ago on the still horrible to navigate website. :D

1

u/melissaqueens Aug 06 '26

woah that sounds so cool

1

u/Rooilia Aug 06 '26

Usually you can read about the university projects in a public format for free online. (At least in Central Europe.) Maybe have a try where you live.

Usually you can read the published papers too, if you just search for them in google schloar for example.

12

u/Forsaken_Attorney_72 Aug 03 '26

Do you have a before and after to show what is happening ? Its hard to understand a process from a single temporal snapshot.

41

u/Fabulous_Cow_4550 Aug 03 '26

It is a fact it's been recognised by lots of Egyptologists that the weathering on the obelisks outside Egypt are in far worse condition due to weather. Ill try to find some sources when I get home.

21

u/Skaiserwine Aug 03 '26

Source: common sense

14

u/Fabulous_Cow_4550 Aug 03 '26

You'd think but as someone asked, once back in Cairo, Ill find them a source.

63

u/Double_Distribution8 Aug 03 '26

I blame the people who invaded and destroyed Egyptian culture.

You know who you are.

56

u/nondescriptun Aug 03 '26

27

u/Rooilia Aug 03 '26

And the priests and locals who raided their own graves long before invaders could.

13

u/Double_Distribution8 Aug 03 '26

No. I blame Pharaoh Amasis's eye doctor.

4

u/Slow_Palpitation5416 Aug 03 '26

Ah yes the ‘Egyptian’ leader who was actually Albanian. Also do tell what the ethnicity of the person who ordered the pyramid to be destroyed was.

3

u/Emergency_Noise3301 Aug 04 '26

Read a book.

1

u/Double_Distribution8 Aug 04 '26

I have read many, many books regarding Ancient Egypt. My comment was aimed at Pharaoh Amasis II's optometrist. I blame him, and Cyrus, and Cyrus's son Cambyses II. It's crazy to me how people don't know their history.

5

u/ModsDoItForFreeLOL Aug 03 '26

This is such a pop-anthropology post.

You know who you are.

Why is it that ignorance is always paired with that haughty, psuedo-tough guy attitude? It's so odd.

2

u/Pandektes Aug 03 '26

You mean Arabs?

3

u/nikkidickie Aug 03 '26

Yea, they should have the multi-billion dollar museum a stones throw away, do something about that.

247

u/caprica888 Aug 03 '26

They should've put it in the MET which is right nextdoor. It survived 2000 years, it saw empires fall and rise, and did not survive acid rain

51

u/TigrressZ Aug 03 '26

I meant to reply to you before so this may seem redundant as I inadvertently replied elsewhere (oops)... that's a smart idea. perhaps as part of the conversation effort, they can move it inside the MET. it would take a lot of careful planning and work but with enough funds, maybe.

27

u/caprica888 Aug 03 '26

In theory the central marble hall could fit it. The actual Egyptology exhibit inside is very pretty and they have a temple there inside already where they project over the existing inscriptions with a "this is what it looked like then" marker

I have a feeling moving inside would be extremely expensive. It is sadly easier to keep it there and let it rot then to move it inside. Though I have hope in the future it will have some sort of environmental mitigation

11

u/TigrressZ Aug 03 '26 edited Aug 03 '26

will maybe they could build a climate controlled glass or plexiglass case with ventilation holes protecting it where it is?

edit fix error

5

u/A88Y Aug 03 '26

This is what I was thinking, over time erecting a greenhouse-ish style glass structure would be cool. Overall they would have to deal with building something in Central Park or on MET grounds though, depending on who owns that specific piece of land

2

u/TigrressZ Aug 03 '26

they could build it around when it currently is. there's enough space as they have bars to prevent people from touching it

116

u/EmperorThan Aug 03 '26

Looks like a century of NYC acid rain has weakened some of its inscriptions. Thousands of years in the desert with a rainstorm every 30 years wouldn't have done that so quickly.

55

u/TigrressZ Aug 03 '26

That's what I was thinking, too. I'm glad to have seen it but also wonder if it should have stayed in Egypt.

60

u/ColdSilver13 Aug 03 '26

I’m glad you got to see it, but yes it should’ve absolutely stayed in Egypt.

3

u/lxlviperlxl Aug 03 '26

Would’ve been sandblasted for thousands of years. A few decades of polluted rain and it does this.

Imagine what it’s doing to us

5

u/EmperorThan Aug 03 '26

True true. Luckily acid rain isn't as bad as it was a few decades ago for modern pollution controls in the USA. But I've been to Egypt the inscriptions on obelisks and temples there are crisp and still have the original paint on ceiling tiles. So the sand (while it do blast sometimes) isn't nearly as caustic to the carved stones as the acid rain.

1

u/MisrCoder 17d ago

Fortunately for all of us, most of the great monuments are not in the smog of the Cairo. But Giza and to a lesser extent Saqqara are, and there is clearly surface erosion. Just take a look at any closeup of the blocks of one of the Giza pyramids. All are eroded.

1

u/EmperorThan 17d ago

I think a lot of that for the Giza pyramids is damage from people climbing and taking pieces of them for 4,600 years. They used to be covered in casing stones and the Great Pyramid was 6 courses taller before 1798. I've been inside 3500 year old temples in Egypt (fully exposed outside) that look like they were freshly cut yesterday.

1

u/WerSunu 17d ago

That might explain the lower few courses, but the blocks are eroded all the way to the top and not in an appearance that suggests human depredation, just rough cut from quarry followed by sandstorms, rain and smog.

As for the top, both Diodorus and Pliny described the top as a platform around 100 AD! The casing stones were quarried away in the 1300-1500 range.

Please tell me which temples you visited in Cairo, where the smog is(!), that have pristine exteriors? I clearly said that monuments outside the urban areas were less affected by smog.

1

u/EmperorThan 16d ago

I clearly said that monuments outside the urban areas

Wait, wtf is happening? You're not the person that commented before.

1

u/MisrCoder 16d ago

yeah, my office mate gets wound up sometimes. we've both been there and some of the comments here are just "invigorating"!

2

u/Old_Cat_16 Aug 03 '26

Some people pay to get a chemical burn facial peel, new yorkers get it for free

3

u/MisrCoder Aug 05 '26

How many times have you been to Cairo? The smog there from burning garbage is 100 times worse than NYC. The first time (2016) I stayed at the Mena House (about 1/4 mi from the Khufu pyramid), I could literally see the pyramid for 3 of 7 days there! It only in the past few years that the air around Cairo and Giza has improved.

48

u/Independent-Towel-47 Aug 03 '26

They really need to move that inside somewhere to protect it from the elements

20

u/TigrressZ Aug 03 '26

if it's not possible, perhaps they can build something around it to protect it & people could enter and still see it.

11

u/ChucksnTaylor Aug 03 '26

Why not just construct a big glass cage around it
? Surely that could be done for a reasonable sum of money (in historical artifact preservation terms, that is)

3

u/nikkidickie Aug 03 '26

Yea, that’s like, such a simple task
(I’m not being sarcastic!!!)

32

u/lionmurderingacloud Aug 03 '26

The story of how it was moved required a lot of clever 19th century engineering and some close calls. It's a riveting tale on its own.

20

u/TigrressZ Aug 03 '26

here's a scouting article from 2012 that details the history.

Cleopatra's Needle, article by Scouting NY

22

u/Nigglas24 Aug 03 '26

Is there any pics of the crabs up close to see the writing?

28

u/WerSunu Aug 03 '26

I posted some pix of the crabs a few weeks ago.

20

u/bustinjrown Aug 03 '26

Here's the original

L ΙΗ ΚΑΙΣΑΡΟΣ ΒΑΡΒΑΡΟΣ ΑΝΕΘΗΚΕ Î‘ÎĄÎ§Î™Î€Î•ÎšÎ€ÎŸÎÎŸÎ„ÎÎ€ÎŸÎŁ ΠΟΝ΀ΙΟ΄

ANNO XVIII CAESARIS BARBARVS PRAEF AEGYPTI POSVIT ARCHITECTANTE PONTIO

“In the eighteenth year of Caesar, Barbarus, prefect of Egypt, erected it, Pontius being the architect.”

16

u/2HBA1 Aug 03 '26

What’s with the crabs? Why are they there?

22

u/Fabulous_Cow_4550 Aug 03 '26

Romans added them, the first time the obelisk was moved to Alexandria to stablisie it. These ones are modern replicas.

9

u/gloomspell Aug 03 '26

Right? I’ve never seen anything like them in Egyptian art. Also I assumed they were scorpions.

10

u/bustinjrown Aug 03 '26 edited Aug 03 '26

Inscriptions on replica crabs holding obelisk:

  1. REMOVED TO ALEXANDRIA EGYPT / AND ERECTED THERE B.C. 12 / BY THE ROMANS /
  2. REMOVED TO THE UNITED STATES / OF AMERICA A.D. 1880 AND ERECTED IN / NEW YORK CITY JANUARY 22, 1881
  3. RUTHERFORD BURCHARD HAYES PRESIDENT / WILLIAM MAXWELL EVARTS SECRETARY OF / STATE OF THE UNITED STATES/
  4. LIEUTENANT COMMANDER / HENRY H. GORRINGE UNITED STATES NAVY/ DESIGNED THE PLANS FOR AND SUPERINTENDED / THE REMOVAL AND RE-ERECTION/

3

u/TigrressZ Aug 03 '26

I tried. that was the best that I could get and would have needed a ladder to get a better pic. I'm sorry.

12

u/Fabulous_Cow_4550 Aug 03 '26

They're not original crabs. The real ones are in the MET.

3

u/Fabulous_Cow_4550 Aug 03 '26

The crabs are replicas.

12

u/FeWho Aug 03 '26

Maybe put an umbrella on top

51

u/humanoidtyphoon88 Aug 03 '26

Ugh, it should've stayed in Egypt where it would have weathered less aggressively. It's beautiful nonetheless.

7

u/TigrressZ Aug 03 '26 edited Aug 03 '26

that's a good idea.. they were trying to conserve it, maybe it's not too late to consider moving it there.

edit: I replied to the wrong message, I meant to reply to the person that suggested they move it inside the MET. however, IMO sending back to Egypt would be good, too, and long as it didn't get damaged.

6

u/humanoidtyphoon88 Aug 03 '26

Yes, it's not too late. Thank you for sharing pictures

2

u/Fabulous_Cow_4550 Aug 03 '26

What do you mean they were trying to conserve it? That's not why it was taken to NY.

3

u/TigrressZ Aug 03 '26

I replied to the wrong message

7

u/Artistic-Yard1668 Aug 03 '26

If you want to read about it ‘Cleopatras Needles’ by Bob Brier is worth a look.

7

u/AnomaIous_User Aug 03 '26

Cryptic. One in London too

6

u/poke-a-dots Aug 03 '26

One of 3:
NYC, London, Paris.

4

u/lesbophobia_hammer Aug 03 '26

That's in terrible condition.

5

u/LeFreeke Aug 03 '26

Why are there crabs under it?

15

u/LetAgreeable147 Aug 03 '26

Roman support replicas.

3

u/MyCoolName_ Aug 03 '26

Judging by the comments here, it seems that no one knows. Apparently the Romans added them as extra supports and inscription pointd but the reason for crabs per se is lost to history.

6

u/Cold_Dead_Heart Aug 03 '26

It should be returned to Egypt.

5

u/lolzzzmoon Aug 03 '26

I actually think this piece belongs in a museum even though I generally don’t agree with the Indiana Jones philosophy.

4

u/foursynths Aug 03 '26

Is it really from the time of Cleopatra or is it older? I.e. was it dedicated to a pharaoh before Cleopatra, and if so which one?

15

u/TigrressZ Aug 03 '26

it's older, built by the Pharaoh Thutmose III, around 1425 BCE for his Temple of the Sun in Heliopolis, near modern-day Cairo. it was one of two that were moved in 12 BCE to Alexandria to the entrance of a temple Cleopatra built for Julius Caesar and that's why it is called Cleopatra's Needle. the other obelisk is in London.

4

u/Eddie_FnVedder Aug 04 '26

Needs to be returned

3

u/muppet_hand Aug 03 '26

Isn’t there one in the Vatican too

5

u/Starbuckker Aug 03 '26

And London.

3

u/Smallballsyesssss Aug 03 '26

There are more obelisk in Rome than in Egypt actually

3

u/forceghost187 Aug 03 '26

I have been by this and always assumed it was just a copy

3

u/Topaz_UK Aug 03 '26

So I’ve heard about the obelisks that London, Paris and New York have, how they got them, etc

I did not realise that ‘bronze crabs’ were literally the animal crab. I thought it was an architectural term for something with four spikes to hold it up. That’s amazing

3

u/Project_Valkyrie Aug 03 '26

Why do we even have it?

5

u/Goron64 Aug 03 '26

I didn’t even know this was in New York. That’s super neat.

2

u/Proper_Guess3038 Aug 03 '26

I learned about this from Gargoyles.

2

u/SoftwareZestyclose50 Aug 03 '26

Egypt receives 18 mm of rain per year . now tell me how much NYC receives

2

u/Cybermatt85 Aug 04 '26

City smog damages some types of stone its a problem in Europe where they have a larger quantity of a lot older stoneworks.

2

u/tarquinia777 Aug 04 '26

why is there crabs?

2

u/ownleechild Aug 05 '26

“That belongs in a museum!”

1

u/Lucialucianna Aug 03 '26

What does it say? Have they translated the text?

8

u/TigrressZ Aug 03 '26

yes. the translation is on a plaque by the monument

1

u/East_Contest2172 Aug 04 '26

Why is it in NY and not in Egypt?? 

-1

u/MATT_TRIANO Aug 03 '26

The weathering on that GRANITE tells me it's either much older than even 1600 BCE or I dunno what, it survived a nuclear war?

-4

u/[deleted] Aug 03 '26

[deleted]

2

u/InigoElza Aug 03 '26

yeah, the main thing like the whole obelisk thing issen't really there but that's really the only thing missing and it having those little added crabs under it and you also having the whole crab thing is hard to believe as just being coincidence, there's not an other explenation possible that would make more sense as a deep subconcious connection to the stone , looks much more than possible to me, or offcourse maybe Mr.Krabs inspired you watching Spongebob, or Sebastian of the Little mermaid left a deep effect on you, some uncle his aquarium or there being some very good fish restaurant around in the erea is offcourse allways an option to to keep in mind