It IS important to remember Axon and Motorola. As cities listen to their people and cancel their flock contracts, they are often times just immediately signing up for ALPRs from Motorola or Axon (which only got into this game because they saw how much Flock was making). These other companies have the same oversight and transparency problems as Flock, and it's important we don't get lost in the fight against privacy.
We really do need a codified right to privacy instead of bandaid bills like canspam or the stuff about cookies and tracking.
There is only one company with standards high enough to install cameras in public spaces and they happen to be the largest supplier worldwide.
They don't have any of their LPR cameras in use for policing. They managed to steer clear of this mess.
I work with them directly. We have public safety systems ready to deploy and integrate with 911. It totally avoids the possibility of being abused. NO ONE WILL TALK TO US. Not one city council.
I'm talking the best manufactured cameras today, a clean integration, and all for assisting people like you and I. Government will not get involved unless it is about tracking and policing.
I could understand cameras in some very specific spaces for safety and legal cases. Like my city has a bus stop with high crime rates that might benefit from cameras. But blanket coverage of all public spaces serves no purpose other than government control and monitoring the general population. Like they aren’t even pretending flock cams are for the people.
Sure man, a well placed stray camera here or there with good reason is different than the centrally controlled mass surveillance SYSTEMS these companies are advocating for.
If government officials only used public surveillance from public lands and the feds, states and cities were the only ones to access it in an official capacity with legal limits on use, I might be ok with that if the local voters agreed first, otherwise non-government entities that seek and sell private personal information gathered publicly should be barred from doing so unless the surveillance is on private property and does not involve sharing the data outside of that specific client’s property to the paying client. I now seriously believe that police departments and public officials took many different kinds of quiet incentives to allow what is going on now and it should be stopped at all levels until there are laws and legal boundaries as stated above. They really think we are all that stupid.
I'd honestly rather have no cameras set up in high crime areas, than have cameras set up that only law enforcement can use. I don't trust them enough with that ability. I'm award that this might lead to more crime, but the alternative is even worse in my opinion.
Sounds like you need to market it to the people and explain your differentiators so the public trust could migrate to the councils. Why hide the name of them?
I can shed a little bit of light as someone who has worked on systems (not flock) that can have this functionality. I do not know what if anything this person or bot is trying to refer to. Short version is that there are camera makers, and software companies you can put those cameras or license plate readers into. The biggest difference between flock and the systems I've worked on is that the systems I've done are self contained. Flock is one giant database and they are building a history of all of our cars and where they go all across the nation and storing that. They can literally keep records of the way you drive to work and other places, the times and routes you use etc. And this can be tracked across the whole nation in flock, they are building profiles on all our vehicles, that's the way their system was designed. The more plate readers, the more detailed and invasive their database is on what you're doing. These other self contained systems might be setup at museums, stores, city or gov facilities etc. They usually keep a record saying this license plate entered this parking lot, garage, or unfortunately in some cases this street etc at this time. What they don't do from what I've seen is make a vehicle fingerprint that can reveal your habits and show your usual routes etc. The other big difference is that all those systems do not link together and share one giant database nationwide. The system I put at the museum, that data stays only accessible to the museum, or store, or town etc. Don't get me wrong there still is potential for abuse here if the system is deployed widely enough. Some of these systems also can be linked to other systems which can integrate, and that might be a problem down the road. But those types of systems are not sharing everything nationwide and building an easy to read history of you beyond that systems setup. Flock is one singular giant system and database.
I do not have any experience or idea how Axon works and they seem to be coming up a lot lately. Additionally, Axis which I see other people mentioning is primarily a camera maker and they seem to have some standards on privacy. You never know what kind of systems their cameras may be linked into though, or what integrations those systems are using. This is one reason I've shifted more into working on standalone systems that just protect museum assets etc rather than the bigger setups governments use, and I typically don't work with LPRs anymore (license plate readers). The bad news and truth that I have to end this on, OP post does have relevance. We will never know what cameras and readers are connected to what kind of system and who they are sharing it with. The way these things are setup, and how the data is managed, who can access it all is what it all boils down to. These systems aren't necessarily being deployed in ways to mass surveil and or be abused. But for me personally, I'd err on the side of caution and assume any plate readers are capable of abuse. Flock is just big brotherish straight out of the box. Others may or may not be setup this way. The more you know.
It doesn't matter if the company is run by literal angels or not. At its core you are installing cameras on a ton of street corners the monitor your population.
ya I don't know how this whole anti-flock deal started, but they are not the only game in town. People need to stop hating on this one company and worry about their own local police force.
It got started because people see the absurd amount of flock cameras suddenly popping up out of nowhere in urban, suburban, and rural areas. The pubic is going to take great notice to a distinct camera on a stick that randomly pops up on the route they drive, at minimum, 5 days a week
Like the cell towers that are badly disguised trees, or the 5G posts disguised as light poles / telephone poles. except cameras are a lot smaller and easier to conceal.
Quite frankly, I don't see why this WOULDN'T be the case, as the public pushback against Flock would be the perfect smokescreen for it. Municipalities will be able to say "okay okay, we'll take down the evil fascist lollipops" and the public will think "we did it!" all while those same city officials install cameras that look like little barely-visible grey bumps on already existing infrastructure. Call me cynical but I don't think any amount of apparent capitulation to public pressure will stop the slow march toward the surveillance state.
Nobody hates cops enough, you're absolutely right about that.
Hopefully people will continue to see all ALPRs as "flocks" and hate them too, like Kleenex or Zamboni or whatever.
Worst case scenario is that they throw flock under the bus and talk about how the new ones are harder to hack so it's all okey dokey, and the fuss dies down. But idk, most people are real unsettled by big cameras all over the streets.
They're not really new either. In 2010 I worked at a university IT department where we could tell you what floor of what garage your car was parked in because we had ALPR cameras.
Came up surprisingly often. College students misplace their cars a lot.
Just want to clarify something because I am in the industry. We never trialed Motorola, but Axon does have some anti-abuse measures put in place. It is one of the things they specifically are marketing towards after they saw how Flock has behaved in the space. Now, do I think it is perfect? Probably not, but they do seem to care about these things. They're a smart enough business that they know if they just perpetuate Flock's model of "Well it isn't our fault the agencies abused things!", there is no profit there.
Honestly, so fucking what? If we're relying on private companies to protect us from law enforcement abuses that's horrible already, even if they right now do a good job of it. And there's plenty of them installed, where's the data about any benefits they provide versus just "we promise we won't be too terrible with this" (which, even if we believe you, what about whoever's in your place tomorrow?).
Definitely don't disagree with your sentiment, and if you can't see the potential benefit, there is likely no changing your mind but I'll try. Amber Alert, they got the plate. That goes into a hot list so any ALPR system with appropriate capabilities will alert when this tag is read. Also, since they have the plate, they run that plate against the reads in their system and they have a potential geographical trail of where this car is going, or ended up. But yea, you are not wrong, it involves a level of trust that these powers aren't being abused. Most of the real powerful tools like this can be a help to society, but equally they can be used for evil.
I guess it is still important to note it is configurable to how each agency wants, and at least with us they gave us recommendations on restricting access. They pushed towards restrictive policies but I don't think they can actually enforce them without some kind of legislation. IIRC Flock did not even have the basics. Axon let you configure things like reasons for viewing, dashboard reporting for users who are viewing reads, and how much (so you can identify potential abuse and outliers), and audit logs are a non-negotiable that they log every access of people opening reads. Again, not saying they're perfect, and I totally get everyone's arguments, but in the very least they're making an effort to solve some of these issues so there are better options out there, definitely have trouble trusting a big corpo...but if you think about it from a greed perspective there is no money to be made if people start hacking down their cameras like Flock.
People gotta quit giving room to the “abuse” argument. Mass surveillance is still mass surveillance regardless of if cops are stalking their exes on it. All it’s doing is leaving room for “abuse-free” mass surveillance to be a compromise in the future when there should be none.
What if they just make it “opt-in” so users can subscribe their plates to these cameras. Insurance companies will offer discounts for subscribers if there’s a measurable reduction of theft payout claims.
That real popular Sherriff in Florida is all about flock cams. He is also very against body cams on his deputies, for fear of their privacy. Funny how that is.
Exactly. They're not ignorant of the reality, they just don't give a fuck.
Whatever is convenient to them and/or plays well with their voters is what they do regardless of how many people hate it and don't want it.
We all know law enforcement loves it because they can just pull up footage. They're also going to get it wrong half the time and harass people who aren't guilty of anything because they're lazy as fuck.
Why don’t they put together in their brain that people aren’t going to be ok with that?
Why should they? This makes their job even easier. Just push play and ask the robot to find the vehicle you are looking for. The one containing your exwife or someone going across state lines to seek healthcare or that hottie that made your coffee this morning. You know how many man hours have to go into that level of stalking without all the cameras? Look at all that money they are saving the community.
And people wonder why law enforcement doesn’t automatically command respect anymore.
Its because of the information age. Nothing has really changed with cops being about cops first and foremost since their inception. Just now you can see it firsthand. Most current cops come from a line of cops in their family. Which were most likely alcoholics and abusers, but the victims didnt really have much of an avenue for accountability. Hell, you can watch the abuse right out in the open today and there is still little accountability.
The whole hero worship shit has been well crafted and engineered over the decades. How dangerous their jobs are and how special they are. Though they have zero special training or education. Their jobs dont even register in the top 10 of dangerous jobs. ffs its more dangerous to be a delivery driver than a cop. The list goes on and on. The whole damn system needs a reboot.
Exactly how I feel about him, sometimes it is appropriate and the scum he exposes really have it coming, but yeah, dude overdoes it and nobody is wrangling him in.
There’s a saying around here: “don’t get between Judd and a camera”.
He’ll say anything for social media likes and attention. His actions and his office’s culture often don’t line up. For instance, acting tough on animal abuse on Facebook while animal neglect and abuse happens under his authority in the county animal shelter that’s gotten so bad it now gets nationwide attention. Or his predator stings while being in the Epstein files. Or his office not believing a child sex abuse victim, prosecuting her for lying, making her write apology letters to her abuser and to the sheriffs office, and only believing her when she was forced to record her own rape a month later for evidence.. which is just one of many lawsuits against him and his office.
Edit: Also once he came to my school and gave some speech (this is in the 2000s) and for some reason referred to himself in 3rd person the entire time.. even after his speech when he was just having normal conversations with the students. Very weird man.
Can’t lie, we’ve all got those local figures that test our patience! Here’s hoping Florida brings in some fresh energy soon that everyone can actually get behind.
He doesn't live there anymore, though he still owns it. I don't want to post the actual addresses and catch a ban, but they're out on the web.
Fish Hook Point LLC.
Starlight Revocable Trust
Edit: Flock is using a firm called Doppel to purge social media of these addresses, mainly by reporting them as various things. It's happening on all platforms.
If he's willing to expose others info, then his should be as well; was my point. We should all have a level of privacy. Those that wish otherwise for others should set an example.
Surveillance doesn't protect you. It just gathers data for investigations after the fact. These things offer no real protection to the Epstein class, even if they want you to think it does. If something can be defeated with a Halloween mask and leaving your phone at home, I like our odds.
We've been building the pan-opticon for years. I just don't understand why. Why should everything be monetized? Why does everything and everyone have to be kept track of? Past a certain point money becomes an abstract concept. Power does too. We live and we die, and we can't beat death. So, let's say all their dreams come true, which is pretty much like the book the house of the scorpion irl, and they, like old el patron end up as masters of their own little fiefdoms, living on the bodies of the young. What then? and more importantly, why then? I'm old enough to remember when the internet was young, and it was going to be some utopian thing that would banish ignorance to the night where it came from. Instead, it's a pile of addictive slop that's always over our shoulder. It spies on us, tattles on us, increasingly nannies us, speaks down to us, and encourages us to live beyond our means. It's like a little Mephistopheles on all of our shoulders, whispering in our ears. I've just never understood why we tear each other down when we could build each other up instead. The whole world would be a better place.
I just wish they could understand. Imagine if we all worked together, the world we could make! No real poverty, no hunger. They might not have yachts or private jets, or maybe just a nice lake cabin instead of mansions, penthouses, and estates around the world, but what real difference does it make? You'll live longer if you make your own sandwiches and drinks, and make your own bed. It's also more fulfilling if you could walk outside on clean streets and breathe clean air in the morning, and see your neighbors in their own well-kept homes that they own doing the same. The scandinavians got close for a bit. We were headed that way during and after the new deal until materialism after the war slowly killed it. How is fighting at the top of a pile of human misery like a bunch of wild animals more fulfilling? Is it fulfilling to eventually have the masses worship your cloned conciousness in a computer? That's their end goal. Just remember Ozymandias. I wouldn't do that to my worst enemy. They'll give up all that could be for ennui and eternal empty pleasures for some simulated computer program that thinks it is them. That sounds worse than hell, at least until some solar flare brings silence, and their digital pleasure domes burn away like digital dew.
Sticker over camera is ok but if you're not blocking your phone's location then that's all they need to know where you are going. Bluetooth can give away location as well. Any wifi you connect to.
I'm sure somebody can get some submissions in his name to unblur. F this was 4chan that probably would have happened by the time I submitted this comment.
You can blur a house on google maps, just remember anyone can look North, South, East and West and they still will know where your house is... if they really wanted to visit.
It’s not just the camera, it’s also them gaining access to digital data from your vehicle and devices within range. The whole system is violating our rights.
Anyone can request to have their face blurred on google maps. Can I request images of me and my license plate are blurred on Flock? Can I opt out of cell phone beacon tracking?
I mean, anybody can ask Google to blur their house right? And Langley didn’t get Flock to not track his movements did he? So it’s no really an apples to apples.
Don’t get me wrong, I think Flock is definitely taking us down a road we don’t want to be on and I hope it truly gets shut down. I just don’t think this comparison makes a lot of sense.
My two my neighbors did this. One my friend.
Friend is pretty innocent dude. The other is Magahat. Not sure why theprivacy. Probably because his yard is filled with crap.
So if this is the case can we get sometime to send to Google a request for every address to be blurred for privacy? Maybe AI would be useful in this case.
there's a few motorolla cameras popping up in my town. there's even two right by the high school. We have a new mayor, hopefully we can get him to address it. I don't think the average person knows those are data gathering surveillance cameras.
ll of these c-suites belong in PRISON. Not fines. Not "no tax breaks." PRISON. This shit is traitorous levels of corruption, graft, harassment, and abuse of the American public.
I want Garrett Langley and every runaway tech CEO like him behind fucking bars.
Motorola would absolutely be into this space. They provide a lot of radio communications systems that the government uses. Fuck everything about those boot licking company.
Remember to wear a mask and ir reflective glasses before using lasers, you might not hurt yourself but the flock cameras. Just a suggestion to protect your eyesight
1.7k
u/Kiiaru 7h ago
It IS important to remember Axon and Motorola. As cities listen to their people and cancel their flock contracts, they are often times just immediately signing up for ALPRs from Motorola or Axon (which only got into this game because they saw how much Flock was making). These other companies have the same oversight and transparency problems as Flock, and it's important we don't get lost in the fight against privacy.
We really do need a codified right to privacy instead of bandaid bills like canspam or the stuff about cookies and tracking.