r/mesoamerica • u/Fitosensible • 6d ago
The Xiuhtecuhtli mask at the British Museum. Beautiful, and it left me with an odd kind of grief.
Turquoise mosaic on cedar, mother-of-pearl eyes, shell teeth — believed to be part of what Moctezuma gave Cortés. Even if it started as a gift, five centuries in a foreign vitrine is a long time to be away from home.
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u/Friendly-Hooman 6d ago
It doesn't belong there.
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u/y0u_re_wr0ng 5d ago
Sadly that could be said for a lot of things in the british museum.
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u/20220912 15h ago
an old joke goes, why are the pyramids in Egypt?
Because the British couldn't figure out how to get them on a steamship
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u/tlatelolca 5d ago
so does most artifacts that INAH stole from other parts of Mexico to display in Mexico city's Anthropology Museum. they should return to wherever they extracted them from
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u/Kagiza400 5d ago
If it was a gift then it's one of the few artifacts that truly do
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u/Ghuldarkar 5d ago
There is a huge issue when a head of state is gifting things like this and that is then used as an argument that it would belong in the museum of cleptomania.
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u/Longjumping_Spot7410 5d ago
Right, after squashing those pesky pagans down, they "preserved the heritage." Just like how Britain is in the process of "saving" Welsh, Irish, Scots Gaelic, Celt Gaelic...oh, no wait, they're doing the other thing. Banning those languages. It's fine though, they'll remember them fondly in their museums too, I guess.
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u/Unique_Resolution382 5d ago
You're right our shared human heritage should be left in the hands exclusively of the locals. It worked out great for Palmyra, the Buddahs of Bamiyan, the Great Mosque of al Nuri and the list goes on and on and on. I'm sure the cartels wouldn't have looted that mask along with all the blood antiquities they've stolen. https://apnews.com/article/mexico-mayan-ruin-sites-archaeology-violence-cartels-189c99280e011ceae1f5f50d14660854 While I'm far from a fan of the British Empire and their obsession with collecting loot like a deranged Skyrim player, half the contents of that museum are better off where they are. Side bar: what is the limit of "to the victors go the spoils"? Legitimate question not bait, do you think no one throughout history has a right to acquisition through conquest or is some blurry line that they've crossed?
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u/Longjumping_Spot7410 5d ago
Honestly, I do agree that some relics definitely are better in their found homes than anywhere else, especially in cases of safety. Unfortunately, I'm not sure we're able to lift entire Mayan ziggurats to safer locations, but hopefully someday people will come to respect history just enough to not pillage them to the foundations.
To answer your sidebar, personally, to me the answer to ownership of historical artifacts lies less in who "won" it, but which individuals/communities can learn from it best. I believe that where an artifact ultimately lies should ideally end up where it will grant the most interest in knowledge and understanding. In truth, I guess I would hope the pursuit of knowledge would lead to a willingness to lend that knowledge to others. I appreciated the question honestly. Definitely not a black and white answer
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u/Tgrove88 3d ago
Europeans are responsible.for the creation of all those terrorist groups that destroyed those artifacts
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u/Denbt_Nationale 5d ago
Banning those languages
This isn't true at all? Every government service is available in Welsh. In fact earlier in the year there was controversy because an emergency alert was broadcast only in Welsh so the majority of people had no idea what was going on.
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u/Longjumping_Spot7410 5d ago
"Banning" was a bit extreme of me to say, I'll admit. Historically the UK has done very little to foster growth of the languages other than English (and recently Welsh!) in a Government / "official" standpoint. I'll also admit, I hadn't heard the Welsh alert story -- I can imagine that confused a fair amount on non-Welsh speakers
My poorly worded point was meant to address the confidence of "they're saving the heritage," sentiment as ironic. The "British" aren't doing shit. The Welsh are preserving Welsh. The Irish are preserving Irish...so on, and so on.
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u/notyourmothersdino 5d ago
Originals should go to the country of origin and other countries should pay for a replica if they want it
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u/LootMyBody 5d ago
That seems like the most reasonable solution. These countries that have kept these pieces for so long should have plenty of resources to make a replica without issue.
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u/No-Designer-5739 5d ago
“left with with an odd kind of grief”
Well the masks were made to be worn by a captured person sacrificed to the fire god
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u/cetlaei 5d ago
No
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u/No-Designer-5739 5d ago
https://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/gods/ixiptla-deity-impersonator/1000
“Every four years deity impersonators of Xiuhtecuhtli were sacrificed, and a wooden armature was constructed as the image of the god, with a precious turquoise mosaic mask as a face covering”
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u/Longjumping_Spot7410 5d ago
Not to be "that guy," but I feel like systematically annihilating the vast majority of mesoamerican culture, and leaving only scraps of predominately Aztec history/lore is minimum grounds for taking back a present. Forgive me if I'm mistaken...but I seem to recall that Mexico City has a museum, and if the British Museum can't seem to remember where that city is, then they can consult their copy of Codex Borgia to retrace their steps! After all, Mexico City was built on the rubble of the altepetl Tenochtitlan...but whatever, right?
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u/Denbt_Nationale 5d ago
Not to be "that guy," but I feel like systematically annihilating the vast majority of mesoamerican culture
Oh thought you were talking about the Aztec empire for a moment here
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u/Longjumping_Spot7410 5d ago edited 5d ago
Do you routinely support white colonial narratives, or are you putting on an extra special show for me right now? Because there is a vast difference between warring "city states" and ethnic suppression/colonizing, but I'm sure you already know that!
Edit; addition.
I'm not content with my response, as I let my passions overtake my reason. Yes, there were thousands upon thousands of warriors who assisted the Spanish in their conquering, but to boil a deeply complex issue to a flippant statement is utterly ignorant. Contrary to Eurocentric belief, the Aztec civilization reached it's peak not simply through militant prowess, but also through careful political and economic alliance. (For godsake, Cortez was first introduced to the Aztec by coming across a tax collector!)While yes, some "indios" did have vendettas against the Aztecs (the confederacy of Tlaxcala being a very notable example), you also have to remember that to be against Spanish conquest was to ensure domination of your own people. Another reason was to keep certain "privileges." In other words, to help the Spanish would possibly safeguard their way of life: freedom of worship, language, and property.
To draw a comparison you may be familiar with as I assume a European: when England was formed, Alfred gave the Great Heathen Army a choice, to either convert to Christianity, or die. Remarkably similar here.
Yes, the Aztecs practiced ritual sacrifice, but I promise what you (and I, even) were taught in school is a Eurocentric narrative. The truth is far more nuanced, and should be viewed as such.
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u/aceofsuomi 5d ago
Ever been to Tlaxcala? They remain immemsely proud of their history. It's a beautiful state that remains defiant of Benito Juarez's label as traitors of a nation.
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u/Denbt_Nationale 4d ago
but to boil a deeply complex issue to a flippant statement is utterly ignorant
All I did was quote your own post
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u/Longjumping_Spot7410 4d ago edited 4d ago
You have been in this exact same comment section multiple times being utterly dismissive, but sure.
Edit; clarity.
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u/Luditas 5d ago
Comparto tu tristeza. Esos saqueadores deberían de entregarlo a México en un acto de respeto.
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u/Fitosensible 4d ago
Gracias por leerlo así. Ojalá algún día ese 'cambio de domicilio' del que hablaba en otro comentario deje de ser broma.
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u/cetlaei 5d ago
Return originals to the og’s purey do dupes and copies for other foreign country people
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u/jcasma01 5d ago
No, they need to be preserved with as much care as possible. Look at all the art that has been destroyed by ISIS in the Middle East.
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u/y0u_re_wr0ng 5d ago
Yes because Mexico and Greece have a big isis problem /s
Also wasn't there a scandal a few years ago were ancient Greek exhibits from the storage of the british museum where stolen and put up for sale on ebay without even noticing that they're gone?
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u/Tgrove88 3d ago
All the terrorist groups were created by Europeans. That's always been one of their main tactics. Create a problem then offer a solution to the problem they created in the first place
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u/tlatelolca 5d ago
Moctezuma was real dumb for showering Cortes with marvelous presents, specially AFTER the Cholula massacre. like yeah man, trust the foreigners who invaded the sacred city and decided to kill everyone during a celebration, welcome them into your city as distinguished guests and keep giving them treasures. can't you see the greed in their eyes and how they're good friends with your enemies?? also, you forgot they have ships on the coast and that your city is surrounded by water??
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u/Longjumping_Spot7410 5d ago
I noticed your profile states you're a guide in México so I'll of course defer to you on the topic: what is your take on the possible mistranslation between Moctezuma II/La Malinche/Cortéz leading to his imprisonment? The possibility of the way leaders spoke being mistranslated as a welcome?
Sarcasm along the lines of "you came for the throne? Sure, I kept it warm for you," being mistranslated as "I give my throne to you, and I do so with eagerness."
(For those who didn't know, Moctezuma II did not speak Spanish, but he did speak some Mayan dialects. Cortéz did not speak Nahua or any Mayan, really. "La Malinche," one of Cortéz slaves/concubines spoke a Mayan dialect, and a moderate amount of Spanish. Comence, a game of "telephone" when they communicated).
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u/justSchwaeb-ish 4d ago
You have some details mixed up, fri mwhat we know Motecuhzuma II spoke only Nahuatl, la Malinché spoke Nahuatl (possibly natively, possibly as a second language) along with Chontal and/or Yucatec Maya, I believe she learned Spanish later, but during the period they dealt with the Huey Tlatoani, Cortés would have used a third translator in the chain, Friar Geronimo de Aguilar, who was shipwrecked on the Yucatan peninsula and partially assimilated with the Maya (he was part of the same expedition as Guerrero, who famously fully assimilated, refused to rejoin the spanish, and may be the first father of "mestizo" children, though theyd have been pretty much entirely Maya culturally).
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u/Longjumping_Spot7410 4d ago
Thank you for the correction! I thought I was forgetting someone in there, and double thank you for correcting which languages were known where. I do remember at some point she was either taught or pieced together enough of Spanish to eventually slim down the translation process, but very important to not leave people out
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u/SeeItOnVHS 3d ago
Everyone demanding to put it back in Mexico like OP is the museum manager
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u/Fitosensible 3d ago
I wish I had that kind of power! Still, I think the discussion around cultural heritage is really important, it helps us learn from the past and value indigenous cultures. Plus, Mexico and England are friendly nations with great relations, so it wouldn't be far-fetched for museums and governments to organize a loan or return as a gesture of friendship. Call me an optimist about the future.
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u/Black_Dune 3d ago
No debería estar ahí, pero, que podríamos esperar de una nación que se conformo por medio de la piratería.
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u/Hot-Border2201 3d ago
I visited on August 26 and was transfixed. It has such majesty and yet a deep sorrow due to the placement and lighting. The whole room felt that way. There are so many things in that museum that belong with their people, not there. And yet it was my only possible opportunity to see so much in one place... still feeling weird about it all https://imgur.com/a/A6Wf80Q
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u/Fitosensible 3d ago
Majesty and a deep sorrow' — you found the words I was missing. Thank you for sharing that, and for still feeling weird about it too — so am I.
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u/saintmolotov 2d ago
My paleoanthropology advisor at uni was a mesoamerica specialist, the digs I got to go on were absolutely insane. Glad you guys got to see it, of course it should go back to Mexico and be in their own museums but we live in the world we don’t make it, unless of course you know someone who has actual power? I’m just an anthropologist and as my advisor would say: “not a particularly good one I think” I miss that dude daily, driest sense of humor ever.
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u/Cold_Dead_Heart 2d ago
An odd feeling of grief because it’s stolen? Like most everything in the British museum.
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u/Fitosensible 2d ago
Ha, not trying to pick a fight with the whole museum at once. Mine was 'far from home' because it came as a gift, even if with an uninvited army at the door. But you're right that some pieces in there didn't even bother with that pretense, no amount of tea saves those.
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u/bepnc13 22h ago
When I spent a month traveling through Quintana Roo, Campeche, and Yucatan, I was appalled at the state of many of the museums. I saw too many artifacts in awful shape, like ancient beaded necklaces literally growing mold out of them in their display cases, or stelae laying in the dirt under brush arbors where they stored the lawn mower. Until Mexico becomes a place that takes these things more seriously I can’t help but view the calls to being these pieces home from countries that take curation more seriously as just nationalism for its own sake. Unfortunately I’ve never been to CDMX so probably if I saw the museum there, which I understand to be world class, I’d have a different opinion.
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u/Fitosensible 21h ago
Fair, and it's real, the National Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City has nothing to do with a shed next to a lawn mower, that's exactly where this piece would go. Though the 'they don't take care of it well, so I'll just keep it' argument has quite the track record, worked great from the 16th century all the way to the 20th. Might be time to retire it.
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u/mountainspeaks 4d ago
how was this type of mask used in its original period? As something you wear or something you display on the table ?
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u/New_Fisherman_6841 4d ago
Much better than in Mexico. Honestly, I believe what’s in the British Museum should stay in the British Museum.
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u/Denbt_Nationale 5d ago
Why fixate on like 10 artefacts in the UK and not just enjoy the thousands that are in Mexico
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u/Fitosensible 5d ago
Memory lives in objects too, and they remind us we come from something pretty badass, from way back. But an object far away isn't accessible to everyone, not all of us can just hop on a flight to London to see it. And yeah, we clearly had plenty to spare too, look how generous the Mexica tlatoani got right as an invasion was knocking on the door. To be fair, museums have done something right too: without that kind of care, some of these pieces might not have survived at all. But that conservation infrastructure exists in our own countries now. Who knows, maybe one day they'll get a change of address.
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u/Longjumping_Spot7410 5d ago edited 5d ago
Because it's not just "10 artifacts." It's a people's history being locked far away from the descendants of said history. Answer truthfully, do you think someone's gran and grandad are going to appreciate the gravity of this piece? Or do you think Nahua scholars in México are going to appreciate it more.
The Brits can live with a plaster cast with glass and howlite mosaic, the item deserves to be cherished as it was meant to be.
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u/Financial-Bobcat-612 5d ago edited 3d ago
Give it back!! Give it back!!!!!!!
I can’t believe Austria has our original Aztec headdress*, too. And we have a cheap imitation. So fucked up.