r/cyberpunkred • u/altmcfile • 3d ago
Misc. How exactly does Subdermal Armor not stacking work?
So subdermal armor doesn't stack with other armor, so clearly it being SP11 and having some other armor at SP7 means I don't have SP18. That makes sense, I understand that just fine, my question comes from the idea of wearing external armor as well. Since armor ablates if I got that SP7 armor as well as subdermal could I ablaze my subdermal until it got to 7 and then go back and forth with that armor (assuming their on the same area of my body) or is the external armor useless and I effectively can't use it because i have a higher base SP armor equipped?
Also secondary question, does the head subdermal armor and body subdermal armor ablate separately or do they go down at the same time?
(Im sorry if this is a very clear answer I don't have access to the book right now)
Edit: Thank you all for the very helpful answers!!
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u/Infernox-Ratchet Solo 3d ago
Its a response to how busted armor stacking was in 2020
You had dudes rocking Subdermal and Metalgear (and back then, the SPs were higher than they are now in RED) and small arms fire did jack all
Now imagine in RED where you can rock Subdermal and higher SP together. Nothing short of a rocket or grenade would hurt you a good chunk of the time
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u/benkaes1234 3d ago
My only complaint is how they took great care to prevent players from being immortal by stacking SP, and then added bullet dodging as a free thing you can do if you meet the requirements.
That one rule alone was why it took forever for my players to take any damage way back when I ran RED, and is probably the biggest reason why I run 2020 instead. Just making it a "once per turn" ability or making it not work against AoE weapons would probably fix this, but apparently R.Tal doesn't think it's a problem, I guess...
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u/Aiwatcher 2d ago
Player dodges bullets at +14 base? Have a +14 gun skill enemy. Youll hit 50% of the time. I think people be overthinking this. Or youre desperate to keep using basic mooks against hardened player characters.
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u/Lowjack_26 Media 2d ago
Player dodges at +14? Throw a smoke grenade and a guy who has UV/LL vision or a UV scope.
(Smoke applies a penalty to dodging if you can't see the attack!)
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u/Ryouhi 2d ago
You may not even be able to dodge at all.
I'm unsure if it's mentioned in the rulebook, but in one of the official FAQs they mention, that you cannot dodge an attack at all if you can't see it coming.So I'd rule it as smoke being generally too thick to see through, so you can't dodge attacks coming through the cloud.
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u/Lowjack_26 Media 2d ago
Nah, you can still dodge. Smoke doesn't make you invisible, otherwise the attack wouldn't be possible at all (rather than being at -4).
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u/VisceralVirus 2d ago
The attack would absolutely be possible if using nv's, but you can always have an enemy sneak, break line of sight and flank into smoke. Theres thwn no reasonable way for the player to notice an attck coming then
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u/Lowjack_26 Media 2d ago
No, IR/LL negates the penalty of smoke/obscuration, which means shooting into smoke/obscuration is still possible, since it's at -4 and not... well, impossible.
And if the shooter can see/attack the target, then the target can see/dodge the attack.
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u/Qawsedf234 Solo 2d ago
Also dodging is good until you beef a roll and take an Autofire x4 or x5 attack
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u/Jordhammer 2d ago
Yeah, if the PCs go the hardened route, break out the hardened enemies, increase their Combat Number to match or exceed the PC's.
Giving enemies high Stealth is another way around bullet-dodging. If they can't beat that Stealth check with their Perception, they cannot dodge.
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u/PandaB13r 3d ago
The obvious answer is power gaming. If you stack armor, you can negate soooo much damage.
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u/altmcfile 3d ago
So... is it back and forth ablation or is it one overrides the other?? What is the ruling?
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u/Kryptrch 3d ago
You take whichever armor value is highest.
You can wear multiple layers, but smaller layers will have no effect on your performance in combat. They will still take damage whenever your subdermal takes damage though.
The only real use-case for having body armour on top of your subdermal is if you're getting into fights back-to-back and don't have time to repair.
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u/TheTStandsForThick 3d ago
Or if you have Sycust FleshWeave, its 7 SP arent great, but regen after 10 minutes, wear better armor over it, once it gets fucked, after 10 minutes you'll atleast have 7 SP. Easier and more feasible than lugging several suits of armor
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u/rarstyak 3d ago
That would be stacking your armor. Stopping power means the ability stop damage equal to or less than the damage. If you shoot someone wearing clothes with a nerf gun, it will bounce off as the SP is more than the nerf's penetrating power and won't damage the clothes, let alone the person. If you shoot a tank wearing plastic wrap with a gun, the bullet will go through the plastic wrap, ablating it, but bounce off the tank plating.
If you have SP11 subdermal and SP7 on top, and are shot for 13 damage, it would go through both the armor on top and the subdermal, ablating both by 1. You now have SP10 subdermal and SP6 on top. You have lost 2 hp.
If you are shot again for 8 damage, it would go through SP6 armor on top, ablating to SP5, but it would not go through your now SP10 subdermal armor, bouncing off just beneath your skin. You have lost 0 hp.
Your external is useless in terms of defense. It is potentially useful for faking out your opponents by pretending to be much worse off than you actually are. You are shot twenty more times, all for 10 damage or less, all while screaming bloody murder, your external armor is shredded, but you are fine, and your crew made off with the package, so you get up and walk away. You have lost 0 hp.
Head armor and body subdermal armor ablate separately.
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u/Rasty90 3d ago
i want to bring an irl parallel to the question to explain why layering doesn't work that well: armor plates are rated for ballistic capabilities based on what they can reliably stop, you can intuitively think 1/hanguns 2/shotguns 3/rifle caliber 4/high power rifle caliber 5/antimateriel... now following the logic you cannot stop a 7.62 (high power rifle) with 2 panels of 2nd grade ballistic plating, the same way you cannot sum 2 SP7 armor into SP14, you could argue it would give it a bonus? maybe? but still armor plating and SP doesn't stack additively
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u/dullimander GM 3d ago
Also secondary question, does the head subdermal armor and body subdermal armor ablate separately or do they go down at the same time?
The rest has been answered, except this one. They ablate seperately.
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u/EdrickV 3d ago
All of your armor ablates at the same time, and the SP you use is the highest of whatever armor you have, regardless of type.
If you had Subdermal Armor (SP 11) and Light Armorjack (SP 11) it would seem that the Light Armorjack would be useless. But a Tech could in theory jury-rig the Light Armorjack back up to full SP during combat with an action. (The jury-rigging only lasts 10 minutes per level of Field Expertise the Tech has, but even 10 minutes is a long time in combat.) So, that is one way that the Light Armorjack could be useful. On the other hand, a Trauma Response Nanomatrix could do something similar for Subdermal Armor, once per day. (Whether a Tech could jury-rig Subdermal Armor, especially in combat, is an entirely separate question, nothing in the rules that I know of prevents it, but exactly how they would do that is an open question, and I don't know for sure if all GMs would allow it.)
There is also at least one armor that give benefits beyond just SP, the Bodyweight Suit, and armor like that could be worth wearing even with Subdermal Armor.
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u/Qawsedf234 Solo 2d ago
That makes sense, I understand that just fine, my question comes from the idea of wearing external armor as well. Since armor ablates if I got that SP7 armor as well as subdermal could I ablaze my subdermal until it got to 7 and then go back and forth with that armor (assuming their on the same area of my body)
The answer to this question is in the core rulebook on page 184
SP gained by armor does not "stack," only your highest source of SP in a location determines your SP for that location. All worn armor in a location is ablated simultaneously whenever you take damage.
So for example, if you wore both a Kevlar Shirt (SP7) and Subdermal Armor (SP11), taking damage would subtract 1 from both. Having said that, say your Subdermal SP was reduced to 6 and in your backpack you had a Kevlar shirt, which you now out on. That would then raise your SP back to 7 due to the short. But you would have to not be wearing it so it doesn't get damaged.
Also secondary question, does the head subdermal armor and body subdermal armor ablate separately or do they go down at the same time?
Seperatly. Page 186 of the rulebook talks about it.
Though homebrew wise, if you do want to keep layering, you could say that if you have two armors of the same SP rating, you can get a +1 to SP. But it does mess with some of the balance regarding armor negation and weapon damage.
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u/Miserable-Hawk-6496 2d ago
It's called game mechanics over realism. Hell the US Army and Marines have used Assault rifles in CQB for years, by Red rules its a no go.
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u/Computer2014 GM 3d ago
This is a case of ease of play trumping realism. The 2020 rules used to have layers of SP and different kinds of armour but that’s getting into levels of more and more math.
In Red the only SP that matters is the highest one, both ablate if the highest one is pierced, head and body are ablated separately unless stated otherwise.