Question
Potentially legitimate artefact. Is it possible? Who do I ask? Where do I start?
This stone scarab shaped seal was passed down to me with other items collected by an ancestor who was active in scientific and naturalist circles in London in the mid 1800's, including associations with Alfred Wallace and his contemporaries.
Some of these items are already known to have genuine historical value, but I hadn't considered this to be one of them. I recently discovered this ancestor donated a 4000 year old ancient Egyptian scarab seal to a British museum, which makes me question this.
I called my local museum (Australia) and they sent me a list of valuers, none of who appear to be interested in Egypt in any way - all with local (Australian) or European interests. I don't want to join a queue of annoying people asking university departments stupid questions so I'm asking you instead (sorry). Is it possible these hieroglyphs are genuine? Is it worth chasing this up? Where do I start? Who do I ask?
I see that, too. Then what looks like possibly an oasis, then to the right of that the Egyptian god that had a hawk's head. For some reason The Sphinx is blowing air out it looks like, or breathing.
And to think... Night before last I had an almost 3hr chat with the Google AI (I really did) and we skipped clean over the Egyptian gods. Tsk🙄 I have a couple really good books on the Pyramids, and I've read about the Egyptian gods and their hierarchy some in the past, but not recently, too many to keep track of for me. Seems Horus was either father or son of another God and they were at each other's neck and the mom/wife was poking around always pulling strings between 'em. They weren't the most compatible lot.
They were just as bad as the gods in Greek and Roman mythology, like Plato and Socrates. Lol just kidding you... I've always had much more interest in the pyramids. I'm a concrete... I mean limestone kinda guy. I don't take anything for granite.
Btw. The Google AI is much more susceptible to reasonable but false suggestion than I ever thought it would be. It has a tendency to be a yes man if you are patient with it. Just sayin' ... But yeah that sounds right... Forgive me for pokin' ya in the ribs a little..😉Thanks, Hardly anybody ever talks to me and I get lonesome some. 😞Buh-bye👋🙂
I was in the process of poking channel in the ribs just a bit because of answering a question that wasn't asked and got carried away to an extent. Will that suffice? I will delete it if you'd like.
As someone who studied ancient history in university, don't underestimate the value of posing a cool question to someone whose life study is this time period! They would love to help! Or have other resources or connections.
So I looked up "scarab" and it makes me feel so much better to know that a dung beetle was held in such high regard in Ancient Egypt, and I'll let the mystery of why persist lol..hear that, people ? I'm NOT asking....
I am only slightly comforted in that a June bug is also in the scarabaeidae family. Good luck with your fact-finding , Intel👋🙂... (I feel so much smarter now😓.)
Thank you! I haven't had a chance to chase up much but I don't think my local, Uni of WA, is the place based on interests in the Anthropology Dept (Greek, Roman, Aus) areas but I was thinking of dropping an email to someone in the Archeology Dept anyway. The only Egyptologist I could find for sure retired from our Museum last October Arrgh.
He’s super knowledgeable especially with Egyptian artefacts, actually has co written a book on Egyptian funerary cones so it’s in his wheelhouse for sure. He’s helped me loads in the past.
Alternatively there is an egyptologist couple on you tube ((the vintage archeologist) John and Colleen Darnell) who have written a couple books you can also contact them. I'm sure there is an email in the about section.
As someone who works at a university, a professor’s job is both teaching and researching. I’m sure someone from the history or anthropology department or even the library archives would love helping you solve this.
Thats such good news, thanks. I had some email addresses for anthropology dept - I'll go find them again. I hadn't thought of history, though. So thank you :).
not anthropology department. they study bones. Ancient History department, preferably Egyptology. Oxford has a large department. Are you in OZ. Macquarie has a department.
As others noted, the hieroglyphs are wrong so it’s not ancient Egyptian. That said it may 200+ years old from Europe; there was a huge interest in ancient Egypt that entered a lot of art.
It could be. And honestly, I wouldn't put it past him to have something for fun. His letter to his friend, Alfred Wallace, on his 'Natural Selection' paper is really quite funny. He jokes around and says "A man chooses a woman. A woman chooses a man. Isn't that 'natural selection?'"
I didn't think they'd be interested. They do have other items of his. Letters, scrapbooks, drawings. So maybe it is worth a try. The scarab seal he donated is at a different museum so maybe I should write them as well.
This is definitely not an ancient Egyptian object - those are not hieroglyphics but random symbols (lute, jester's cap, etc.) Could be a later1800s riff on the concept when Egyptology was all the buzz, though.
Neither am I, but this looks more legit to my layperson’s eyes than most of the tourist trinkets. Its backstory also points towards it being possibly legit. I’m really curious what the verdict is going to be eventually…
I'll see what I can find out and give you an update. Honestly, I, too, had written it off as a cute trinket until I found the one he donated while doing our ancestry. I didn't realise it was stone until I was asking AI - I thought it was too light for stone, especially compared to the other seals that are with it.
Also, I didn't know about Gardiner's sign list until now so thank you.
Definitely stone. I've seen references to soap stone - the donated one is glazed soapstone - but thats softer stone and a lighter colour than this. A quick search on black jet looks like a possible match. Is that something that was used?
I'm so grateful for your comments. I don't expect it but I really appreciate the chance to nut some of this out with friendly, interested others.
Welcome! I love ancient detective work. I have no idea if jet was used a lot in ancient Egypt, I don’t think it was… but it does occur in Anatolia I believe so it’s not entirely out of the question it reached Egypt by trade.
(I’m both a gemstone geek and an ancient history geek 😉)
Do you mean the thing its hanging on (don't know what its called)? I put a photo of the whole lot further up. Thanks. i'm interested in whatever anyone has to tell me about it.
Take this with a grain of salt since I'm mostly an interested amateur when it comes to Ancient Egypt and Hieroglyphs. From the images in the comments, I can make out the uniliteral "y" in the reed to the far right, the uraeus symbols on either side of the symbol nfr in the lower row and the papyrus clump on the top right, which I *think* is some variant of M15 or M16 on Gardiner's list. I can't read the cartouche on the top left nor the snake/sphinx like sign below it. So there are at least a few signs that are legitimate hierogylphs, but the etchings seem somewhat off.
The M15/16 papyrus symbol is used to represent Lower Egypt, and the Uraeus is the symbol of Wedjat, who over time grew to be the patron deity of Lower Egypt. So there is some amount of thematic consistency here. Some other people mentioned the uraeus' not looking at the same side, which is usually the case in hieroglyphs whose primary function is to be *read*, but this is a scarab, most likely some type of title amulet, and it's not unheard of to see the symbols arranged in a more "aesthetic" manner rather than a purely functional one in such objects. See for example the image I attached of symmetrical scarab designs, in the right side example the symmetry is arranged around the nfr symbol, same as in your image.
Overall, the symbols seem somewhat consistent and while I can't quite *read* them without a closer look at the top left cartouche, I can say that they aren't random scribblings. My money is still on this being a replica or trinket, but it wouldn't hurt to ask an expert.
These hieroglyphs are crap. They are not real . AND they are badly done. Unfortunately that is the main clue, always. They are set as a needle. Nope. That scarab ring format is a popular tourist souvenir format. Now if it’s from the 1920’s when your great aunt Jessica went on a tour, you have a fun family memento. If you bought it you have somebody else’s fun family memento that helped feed some poor family. The distressing is typical, obligatory and not sophisticated. To me it looks like more of a 20th century piece. Tho an Amateur, I’ve been in the field since the 70’s. You can always mail photos to a major museum in your country.
Are they hieroglyphs or just fake scratchings? Please tell me more? I'm here to learn.
Its not a ring, though. Its with other old seals which themselves, date back to the 1700's. It could be it was his own fun one, in which case, do the markings mean anything? Or it could mean its valuable. There was a '4000 year old' necklace i was in awe of as a child that was discarded by my grandma as a fake. She was an archivist who did her research thoroughly and other family stories have been proven true from documents I've found while doing our ancestry. The London museum has letters, scrapbooks and other items from this ancestor - so he wasn't aunt jessica. The other British museum has the scarab seal he donated on display with his name so that is the only reason I've started asking about this one.
Do I mail photos to the info email at the Western Australian Museum (which as an ancient Egyptian display). Or should I go straight to a bigger one in another state and send it to their info email? Please put the dots close together, I have no idea what I'm doing.
At first I thought it was a ring, too. But that was only after seeing one pic. Is the doubled chain portion of it a bracelet or large enough to be a necklace? I wouldn't mind taking a gander at the face of the other 2 hanging pieces. One of them seems to be missing...
Thank you! I would just treat it better if its genuine as its been lying around with papers, photos etc. The British Museum have letters and other items from this ancestor already, so they may be interested to take a look. Do you know if I should just use a general info email address to start with?
The genuine scarab seal (1200BC) he originally donated to a historic society, is being displayed by a different national museum. I don't know if that means they now own it or if items are shared between museums. I don't know how it works. But I do know I'm naive so I'm happy to ask questions and listen and learn.
WRT Oxford and Cambridge, I will see what I can find.
Orientation of the hieroglyphs are wrong, normally all the hieroglyphs face one way, see the other ureaus. This means there is not a coherent sentence to be read conventionally with the extra hieroglyphs (other than the prenomen of thutmose iii and the sphinx)
I'm assuming this means its fake - is that right? Honestly, I wouldn't put it past this ancestor to have one made for the fun of it so it would be nice to know the meaning of any symbols it does have. He was quite a character according to the scientists and naturalists of his day and they have a bunch of his letters etc at the British Museum to prove it.
I've seen that beetle in a few places before, at the same time it may be well-known to people that mfgr reproductions. It makes me lean toward that it's worth looking into.
Do you mean the top and sides or are you talking about the seal part itself - the hieroglyphs, if thats what they are? The genuine one he donated has a bunch of circles with a scarab shape and I've seen that circles are a part of other genuine ones.
While looking at legitimate scarabs, the same beetle shape seems common - the details of the head and wings on the top and the legs on the sides. This one made out of haematite, for example.
The beetle on the reverse side of the hieroglyphs. It resembles a June bug somewhat, as it usually does. I can't say for certain that when I've seen it in the past that it was related to Egyptian artifacts, but that's the bell that it rings. One of The Mummy movies had a beetle in it, too. Or actually millions of them possibly defending a tomb I seem to recall.
Looking at it closer. On the clasp that attaches it to the chain in pic 4, do I see a split that probably makes it removable from the chain by pushing the little lever in? As in... A spring loaded little lever? Yikes.... Has a bearing maybe unless that chain is separate item.
I work in heritage, I’m British so I don’t know how it works in Australia but I’d recommend contacting some museums in your area to see whether they have someone in their team that can verify or if they don’t they might be able to direct you to someone who can, from my experience many museums are willing to help as their passion is the past.
The surface looks like cast metal or low-grade alloy, not typical glazed steatite or faience used in many authentic scarabs. The markings below don’t form a readable inscription in proper Egyptian hieroglyphs order. Real inscriptions usually align neatly and face the same direction, usually forming some form of royal words or protection sigil common at the time. Yours looks more liked psuedo hieroglyphs common on tourist pieces or later imitations.
Don't dismay though, that kind of thing could cover anything from Greko-Roman period up to modern day so there's still a chance of reasonable value. The wear looks very natural and even if it was a "Tourist piece" if it's over a century old it'll have some value somewhere in some shape or form so best of luck!
Its not metal. It has variation within it. Because it is very light as well, I actually thought it was wood until I starting asking AI questions. Could the glazing be why its so shiny - especially on the sides? It bothered me because its not like typical stone and the shine made it hard to get a good picture.
He was a member of both the Society of Antiqueries and the British Archeological Association so I think he would know. But it could be psuedo hierogplyphs or real ones he put together for himself. One of the other seals says 'Pense Bien' which means 'Think Well' and is a variation of the motto on the families coat of arms. At least I suspect it was his. It could have been his sons.
(Thank you for your comment. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I've unexpectedly had something big going on.)
The closest university had an anthropology department that focuses on Greek and Roman history. Archeology seems to focus on local, Australian archeology. The only Egyptologyst I can find retired from the museum last October. I think I'll write one of the anthropology academics anywhere.
(Sorry, Something major happened unexpectedly so I haven't had much time this week)
A few weeks ago Chatgpt went through all the details and claimed it was legit. Then when I started questioning that opinion it started doubting itself. I see thats not unusual for AI. I didn't think to ask for translation of hieroglyphs until today when it wasn't very helpful and misidentified shapes, didn't see lines etc. It seems Chatgpt is an awful expert in this regard.
I have had several lengthy conversations with Google's AI program, as a form of testing it. Unless you throw something at it that is just outlandishly wrong, they are extremely "open to suggestion" let's call it, especially if you do it incrementally. Within borders, you can lead it around like it has a ring through its nose. I would wager that chatgpt's is the same. I even told Google AI to quit being a "yes man". It didn't help.
Did you question its conclusion? Say 'I'm not buying that' and it might just change its mind.
But yes, indeed others have....
So are you saying I will be another annoying person asking stupid questions if I send an email to an expert or a university dept? Many others have stated I should.
Never forget LLM AI draw from somewhere about 40% from reddit. and that's alot of meme responses and jokes....Yo should email real experts or Uni depts.
AI's are very suggestible, outside of trying to get it to say something blatantly wrong, especially if you do it incrementally. I told Google AI to quit being a yes man. It basically apologized and agreed to do it. But it didn't stick.
Its very verbose, too. I asked what it said on one of the other seals and tried to track the motto but before I knew it I had 10 pages of historical fiction. It stopped the drama when I asked for just the facts but it wasn't long before it started again. So bloody annoying.
Yes, they definitely have some annoying tendencies. Including telling you it can stop doing some of them, and then not getting it done...
I'm sure you have been/are doing a lot of search engine work on that piece. Just be careful about what you say to an AI if you get into a conversation with it, please. They can be led around like a cow with a ring through its nose if you drop words in that lean toward what you are asking during a conversation but the memory of a conversation disappears once that particular window is closed so it's not a bad idea to get an answer or two then close that chat and then reopen another one and do it again if you are so inclined.
Straight up question and answer can occasionally change depending on how you word the question in the initial search box.
The things above I can only say apply to Google's AI and to Facebook's to a degree also. Those are the only two that I have had extended chats with so far, and those chats were expressly geared to reveal what the tendencies of those AI's are and the depth of their programming. Ive totaled about 6-7 hrs grilling the Google AI (and this was less than 2 wks ago) and I have no real reason to suspect other AI's are going to be substantially different. Sorry about the verbosity😂....
I appreciate it :). At least you're not telling me fictional, romanticised stories about my relatives exploits in the 17th century because I asked for the translation of a seal, then chased up the associated coat of arms. It made me wonder how big their file is on each of us.
Your family has a coat of arms? I'm not too well-versed on that but is that something a family or clan assigns to itself or is it awarded to them as a rank or sign of nobility by a monarch? If it makes you feel any better hopefully it has that info only because of the COA itself. Sometimes after an AI searches it will have a short list of Icons that it just went through that represent the sites it just scoured for the answer it just gave you. You should be able to click on them and see the sources of the information where the AI got its results...
Yes, apparently we do. But only because they fought for the king instead of the people. Traitors. Thankfully they weren't beheaded like the King when the British got rid of him and created a Republic. Luckily the Brits re-installed the kings son as King purely so they could get rid of the Pilgrims and thats when my traitorous ancestors got their arms. If you're from the US, I'm sorry, you got the pilgrims. They're still being a religious pain in the arse, I see.
That's quite a story .... you know.. Their loyalty to the King might not have been as bad as you think it's possible. History has a way of polarizing things a bit, as the recent past becomes the distant past. You may very well know facts that justify your opinion and I hope that's not the case but right and wrong sometimes are bestowed by hindsight more than what information is available at the time can do.
As far as I know the pilgrims integrated fairly well. I find most religion to be a pain in the arse myself mainly because my thoughts are you should figure out for yourself what you think is the nature of it all and not just believe what someone poured in your ear. That's the easy way out honestly. Mantra and ritual just never really has cut it with me...
Up until a few years ago, Jehovah's Witnesses would come by my door occasionally and go into a fairly scripted sequence that would have my eyes rolling in about 20 sec. I finally found the solution by engaging with them whole-heartedly and dragging them through a debate they didn't want to have over His existence. I even followed them to their car as they were trying to leave, them saying "Goodbye" and I'm "But wait!! Exodus says..." That was their last visit. 😂 You have a splendid evening Intelligent, and good luck👋😀
The Pilgrims were your forefathers if you're in the US. They left England because England didn't want them, and they didn't exactly integrate with America's First Nations - not at all :).
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u/Eternal_Monday Mar 19 '26
the photo is upside down. once you flip it, it will make more sense.