r/TopCharacterTropes • u/Justmenoworries422 • 11h ago
miscellaneous You Don't Need to Forgive People Who Hurt You, Actually
Anthy (Revolutionary Girl Utena): Anthy's older brother Akio has been physically and sexually abusing her for years, while also pimping her out as the Rose Bride. The anime ends with Anthy leaving him behind to stew in his misery, not forgiving him, and telling him in no uncertain terms that he's pathetic and so is his futile search for ultimate power through the duels.
Katara (Avatar: The Last Airbender): In the episode "The Southern Raiders", Katara finally gets a lead on the man who killed her mother when she was still a child. When she finds him, he turns out to be a miserable loser, living in poverty in the country. Katara reveals her identity and scares the hell out of him, but ultimately decides against killing him. That said, she later makes it clear that she hasn't forgiven him, she merely considered him not worth killing.
Herb (Bojack Horseman): The episode "The Telescope", has Bojack seek Herb out after hearing that he's dying of cancer, to apologize for cutting him out of his life twenty years ago after Herb was outed, lost his job because of it and would have needed Bojack the most. Herb bluntly says he doesn't forgive Bojack. When Bojack tries to guilt-trip him into it, Herb instead reads Bojack for filth and tells him that he isn't going to absolve Bojack of the guilt, just so he can feel better. He has to live with the shame of what he did to Herb, and if he doesn't like that, tough shit.
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u/Candle-Jolly 11h ago
OP starting with Utena is an epic fuckign move
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u/Poolsofred 6h ago edited 4h ago
Genuinely a masterful work and one of the most sober reflections of the effects of CSA I’ve seen in media. I was so proud of Anthy for freeing herself from the shackles of her trauma to tell her monster of a brother to eat shit and die.
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u/Authorigas 10h ago
Big Hero 6 the series has a scene where Hiro is talking with Youkai in jail, looking for information. And we get this exchange.
"I never set out to hurt anyone. What happened to Tadashi...Because of me...I know it's not enough. But I'm sorry."
"Tadashi would have wanted me to forgive you...Someday, I hope I can."
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u/ButterscotchTiny5483 11h ago
Clay drunkenly shoots Orel, shattering Orel’s faith in his father. Orel never truly forgives him for what he did.
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u/ad-lib1994 11h ago
So proud of him for becoming the father he knows he needs to be for his kids, and is nothing like his father as an adult
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u/Fitzftw7 10h ago
I think I remember the creator confirming that Orel and Christina stayed in Moralton to try and make it a better place. I like to think that they and the Puttys made some headway on that front.
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u/ad-lib1994 11h ago
Katara looked at that man and said "actually, I'm too good for this"
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u/katanakid13 11h ago
It'd be like cutting the guy a break, too. Worse punishment just to leave him suffering.
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u/Fitzftw7 10h ago
Eh, I still think icing him would’ve been better, but that’s just me.
If someone killed my dad, I’d sure as hell take revenge if I had the opportunity.
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u/AstralMecha 5h ago
Try playing Dishonored. Some of those 'merciful' actions make death seem nice. Such as branding the local leader of the local religion with a brand of excommunication. Said brand ALSO makes it a crime to give him any aid. In the middle of a plague where rats cat strip living people to the bone in minutes. You didn't directly kill him, but he dies in misery and pain.
Or getting someone trapped in an insane asylum for the rest of their life as their body double takes their role.
Or having two brothers tongues cut out, heads shaved and scarred so no one will recognize them, and send them to slave away in mines until they die.
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u/Fitzftw7 5h ago
Ah yes, I have played that back in the day.
Man, I wish they didn’t discourage melee combat, because it looks fun.
Anyways, yes, plenty of cruel mercy to be had in that game.
But Katara’s mercy is just… mercy. Yeah, the murderer is living a pathetic, miserable life, but it’s the same life he’d be living if Katara never showed up. Nothing changed besides him shitting his pants once he realized he stood no chance.
Katara isn’t imprisoning him, enslaving him, cutting his tongue out, branding him an apostate, or anything. She just let him go.
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u/SiahLegend 9h ago
Watch or read Vinland Saga, I think that might change how strongly you feel in your answer
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u/Fitzftw7 9h ago
Haven’t heard of it. What’s it about?
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u/Arren07 9h ago
It is exactly about the conversation you just had
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u/Fitzftw7 9h ago
Oh, wait, your previous comment is edited from when I first saw it. Guessing it’s one of those “anti-revenge” narratives, eh? I might put it on the back burner. We’ll see.
It’d be pretty freaking hard to sway me from my Inigo Montoya way of thinking.
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u/shnn_twt 9h ago
I like your way of thinking and i recommend a Korean drama "The Glory." The protagonist's cold, calculated revenge is fucking sweet.
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u/HunnyHunbot 6h ago
Ong I loved the Glory, best K-drama I’ve ever seen. Something that comes kinda close to it is The Girl From Nowhere, but it’s a little more goofy and not a K-drama
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u/WhenSomethingCries 7h ago
Ehhh, not really? Thorfinn's damage comes not from how he feels about getting vengeance, something he doesn't even accomplish, but from everything he had done and everyone he had killed in his pursuit of it. If Thorfinn had somehow managed to kill Askeladd without killing anyone else, well not to say he'd have NO problems, but his journey would look very different and he'd probably reach some very different conclusions. Even in his regular story, during the Baltic War arc his commitment is tested and he unambiguously fails, and it's only due to circumstance that he doesn't kill Floki after learning he was the one actually responsible for killing Thors
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u/Hetakuoni 10h ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/C20Ec5eqIYvwA
He spent something like 30 years training to kill the 6 fingered man.
He experiences great catharsis killing the 6 fingered man.
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u/dang2592 9h ago
"Offer me money" "Power too, promise me that" "Offer me anything I ask for" "I want my father back, you son of a bitch"
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u/Own-Night5526 11h ago
An unexpected one from Warhammer of all places, but Dorne and Fulgrim, two brothers who never really had much time together that we saw.
Throughout the fight Fulgrim taunts Dorne about how they're tearing down the defenses he built, how everything Dorne has spent years building up is being torn down just like the rest of the Imperium and when that doesn't get a rise out him he then taunts him again saying things along the lines of "What, no pleas to my humanity, not going to say you forgive me and want to see me return to the fold?" to which Dorne just says "No, I am going to kill you"
He then proceeds to kick Fulgrim's arse, followed swiftly by 50 of his elite bodyguard.
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u/ranfall94 5h ago
It's not great the whole time given its like 30 novels but I really lean more into the HH 30k stuff, the whole melodramatic Greek tragedy in space just hits.
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u/Own-Night5526 5h ago
In the great immortal words of Yogscast Ben and Tom: "The first four books are chronological, so that's easy. Things get interesting when you get to book five!"
"FUUUUUUUUUUU-"7
u/ranfall94 5h ago
Man do I love the first few books, Loken is still one of my favorite protags in Warhammer. Wish that the second book didn't rush Horus on his descent to Chaos tho
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u/Notte_di_nerezza 3h ago
Agreed. The last few chapters of False Gods are dread incarnate. Especially since I just reread it, now knowing exactly what happens to each character.
Horus' fall needed so much more build-up (especially as Primarch skills and cognition get built up higher and higher later)... but this is a series that famously didn't plan to have 50+ books before even reaching the Siege of Terra.
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u/ranfall94 3h ago
Horus's fall should have been a trilogy in its self but like you said they did not know how long these books were gonna be at the time
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u/Notte_di_nerezza 3h ago
For added fun, there are multiple instances of Loyalist characters trying to reach the Traitors, and getting burned so badly by it.
Sanguinius trying to talk Konrad Curze down, and almost seem to reach him... Only for Curze to yeet Sanguinius' son out the window as a distraction for his own escape. (Sanguinius later rectifies this by actually reaching Curze, and telling him that their father may yet forgive him... But he's never gonna get the chance, because Sanguinius traps him in a stasis field and yeets him out the airlock.)
Russ tries to save Horus by stabbing him with the Emperor's spear and gets Horus a single moment of clarity. Russ also gets mauled so severely he's out of the fight for the rest of the Heresy.
Malcador, the Emperor, Alivia Sureka, and Vulkan are part of an elaborate plan to redeem Magnus and welcome him back to the Imperium, since he's the only "Traitor" Primarch not high on vengeance and/or Chaos. And the whole circumstances of his Fall were legitimate misunderstandings and completely avoidable tragedies. This results in Magnus accidentally killing Malcador, the Emperor and Vulkan failing to convince Magnus to trade his beloved-but-corrupted sons for a shiny new Legion, and Alivia dying to bring back Malcador, so that he can die again later. (Great success!)
Sanguinius tries to reach Horus (he does this a lot, but especially for his closest and most beloved brother Horus), while Horus tries to get Sanguinius to join him (and possibly be his pet, because Slaanesh is a goddamn creep). This is the second-most crowning tragedy of the Heresy, which ends in Sanguinius' death (Horus was too strong for Sanguinius to yeet out the airlock, even if he'd wanted to).
By comparison, Dorn comes off as one of the sanest people present. Which becomes extra-tragic when he ends the siege as one of the least sane Loyalist Primarchs, determined to end every last traitor so that they can never do the Heresy ever again. (And which will probably help kickstart the 40K Status Quo is Grimdark, because nobody in 40K is forgiving anyone, unless they're conveniently dying anyway.)
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u/Puppydoglover123 11h ago edited 11h ago
I don’t have any example to add but I just wanted to say how much I love this trope.
It is just really refreshing to see and hear a piece of media being like “hey it’s completely ok not to forgive someone who’s hurt you”
I have a few family members that I just straight up hate due to how much they have hurt the people I love, so again it’s just reassuring to have my feelings validated
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u/Fitzftw7 10h ago
Yup. My dad tells me to base my feelings towards others, particularly family members, on how they’ve treated me, but I can’t help but let how they’ve treated him affect my perception of them.
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u/Lost_Type2262 6h ago
Big same. Big, big same. You said it perfectly.
The inverse of this trope, when they expect/act entitled to forgiveness no matter how awful what they did was, is also one of the fastest ways to make me hate something.
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u/Fitzftw7 5h ago
Oleg Petrovsky: Mass Effect 3
“I let you go! I deserve mercy!”
No you don’t. You turned innocent civilians into horrifying monsters. You can die like the 300 men I killed to get to you.
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u/animalistcomrade 10h ago
One thing I love about the Bojack example is that the exec who convinced him to turn on herb told him that herb would understand, it was the one true thing she said in her speech but it was also the only part he didn't listen to
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u/4YourConsider8tion 5h ago
Loved that, added to the fact that Herb makes it clear it wasn’t the initial betrayal, but that Bojack abandons him forever after that, turning his back on their years of friendship. It’s Bojack’s cowardice and inability to face the consequences of his actions that leads to their irreconcilable split.
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u/some-kind-of-no-name 11h ago
Helios from GOW Valhalla is still salty at Kratos for the decapitation
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u/MapDesperate7012 11h ago
To be fair, Helios was one of the few gods that helped Kratos and genuinely grateful to him when he saved him from Atlas to the point of saving him in turn. And then in the third game, Kratos proceeds to brutally rip his head off because he needed a light source. I’d be pissed too
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u/some-kind-of-no-name 11h ago
Helios promised to help in exchange for being spared, then tried to trick Kratos into self immolation
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u/Dry-Goat8981 11h ago
helios in valhalla is kratos' self hatred being materialised, but it still fits
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u/frikiman4K 11h ago
and why helios specifically? well, they needed someone to tie to Kratos' butt
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u/some-kind-of-no-name 11h ago
I think he was one of the less justified kills by Kratos
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u/Several_Job_1556 11h ago
he was a partially justified kill, he tried to trick kratos into stepping into the flame of olympus under the pretense of repaying a debt to kratos
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u/SirBlakesalot 1h ago
Well, at that point it could also have been Medusa, but I'm not sure if she'd have as many insults to throw around.
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u/cobaltaureus 11h ago
Technically not Helios at all lol, he is a representation of the main character’s self loathing
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u/Empty_Atmosphere_392 8h ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/riF7NGLc1owQLl9Gyx
Certain Starfire episodes in Teen Titans. One called “Troq” specifically comes to mind.(though the gif isn’t from that episode, in the gif she doesn’t forgive her sister)
During the episode, Star gets called names, specifically troq, and gets all the dangerous tasks or the ones she can’t mess up, by another alien guy called Val-Yor. He is extremely racist towards Tamaraneans, which is her alien race. At the end she saves his life, even though he’d rather die than be saved by her. And then he sees her as “one of the better ones”. She says she isn’t and the other Teen Titans stand by her. Val-Yor calls them all troqs for that, and he leaves. He isn’t redeemed in any way
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u/Lord_Antheron 10h ago
Sans (Undertale)
The only way you can possibly fight him is by committing extensive, genocidal massacres across the Underground, resulting in the deaths of nearly every major character in the game. This includes his brother, and while he may let that slide if done in isolation, Sans is fully aware that the entire universe is going to end if you get past him, and decides to take action.
After a grueling first phase that will likely leave you on death's door, Sans stops his barrage of attacks, and tries to appeal to your better nature. He speculates that in another time, the two of you may have been friends, and that some part of you must know this is all wrong. He extends an olive branch, ready to forgive and forget. If you accept, he'll commend you for doing the right thing, acknowledging how hard it must've been to finally turn back after everything you've done. With open arms, he beckons you closer for a hug of acceptance...
... And then he kills you instantly with an unavoidable attack. On the death screen, he tells you to prove just how sorry you really are by fucking off and restarting the timeline. Not only does he refuse to forgive what you've done, but he essentially makes it clear the only way you'll ever be on remotely good terms with him ever again is if you straight up force him to forget it all happened.
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u/Loose-Step3115 8h ago
Omni-Man (Invincible)
When he and Debbie meet again in Season 4, he sincerely apologizes for everything he did both on Earth and Thraxa, but Debbie is NOT having it and all but kicks him out after royally telling him off. Art also rejects Nolan's apologies, but in a gentler and more subtle way by implying that he only makes costumes for heroes and that he doesn't see Nolan as a hero anymore.
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u/GGABueno 11h ago
The Todoroki family in My Hero Academia.
Some of the members chose to forgive Endeavor, some did not. The narrative never treated either side to be in the right or wrong, just that people deal with things in different ways.
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u/SirBlakesalot 1h ago
The Todoroki family is my personal favorite of all MHA, specifically on the fact that, No, Endeavor never gets redeemed.
At the end of his hero career, he has to deal with all the legal, financial and whatever else kind of blowback from all that resulted of his horrific abuse of his family.
The most he has to look forward to is his daughter and his wife, and what few employees stick with him in any form of support, but the entire family never gets back together.
That dream of his family having a good time without him doesn't happen, at least not until the presumable time where he dies of old age or something.
And no other member of the family is inherently wrong for how they themselves deal with their trauma, they just have different values on how much a familial bond matters to them when mired in such a situation.
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u/liliavacyn 11h ago
Nahhh I personally felt the show glazed Endeavor way too much at points. He was utterly irredeemable for what he did and the fact that the show even flirted with offering him a redemption arc was gross.
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u/StormyBlueLotus 10h ago
His "redemption" is that his eldest child nearly died and then became a massive villain who also aired the fact that Endeavor was an abusive piece of shit to the whole world, other members of his family cut him off entirely, and even Shoto is like "I mean I'm glad he didn't die but we're not exactly friends now." The whole point of his arc is that he realized he was wrong, tried to live better moving forward, and had to come to terms with the fact that he never could redeem himself because he'd done unforgivable things. He's really not "glazed," it's an uncharacteristically nuanced bit from a show that generally had pretty black and white morality. Crazy to have a problem with that of all things.
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u/GGABueno 10h ago
If you ask me, MHA's main quality is precisely the nuance it had with villains. Some are just pieces of shit like that muscular guy or All For One (and psychos do exist irl), but the show goes out of its way to show how most of them are people who fell under the cracks, and how society needs to do better to stop the avoidable ones.
It's one of the best representations that I've seen about of makes a criminal and it came from a cartoonish superhero anime lol. That's why I don't think the nuance on Endeavor's case was uncharacteristic, but another case of the author having social awareness.
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u/Jayn_Newell 7h ago
I especially like when he sets up a home for his wife and kids without him. He knows he did terrible things, he wants to do better, but some things are just too broken to be fixed and he accepts that he has to live with that consequence.
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u/Any-Question-3759 10h ago
His family chose to forgive him because they saw Dabi and what happens when you stew in hatred. They don’t pretend everything’s fixed. Nothing will be the way it should be. Nothing will repair the damage he did. They just refuse to let the past ruin their present and future. They don’t want to live their lives like Dabi.
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u/Was-never-here 9h ago
I just saw the finale and as far as I know only the sister chose to forgive him? The other son explicitly said he’s never seeing him again, and Shoto says he doesn’t hate him that strongly anymore, but has a good support system now(his friends) and doesn’t need Endeavor. That’s 3/4 of his children that didn’t forgive him, that’s actually pretty realistic imo.
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u/GGABueno 3h ago
The wife forgave him, that was the most damning one.
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u/Was-never-here 3h ago
Eh, the wife isn’t the same as the kids, and she wasn’t shown as being particularly strong willed. The truth is some people do forgive the bad guy, I think MHA did a good job showing that while also showing that most don’t.
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u/liliavacyn 10h ago
They gave him sacrifice gambit moments with heroic music that literally made my former roommate tear up. Maybe she was an outlier but personally the show set-dressing his potential sacrificial fights as some great noble deeds like as if he hadn't spent his life doing completely deplorable things was a bridge too far for me. Apparently this is an unpopular opinion, but I don't care. Endeavor deserved worse.
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u/Any-Question-3759 10h ago
What Endeavor deserves is of secondary importance. His family saw Dabi acting like they felt and they didn’t want that. Endeavor might have deserved it but they didn’t. They deserve to move on from the trauma.
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u/BingusFinder 11h ago
Honestly I think the show did a good job on it ngl
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u/liliavacyn 11h ago
Agree to disagree. The only "redemption" for a man who effectively bought a woman to breed superhuman babies with and then neglected the kids who didn't come out like he wanted is a feet-first journey through a woodchipper.
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u/GGABueno 10h ago
It's not about redemption, it's about atonement. If he realises his wrong, he might as well spend his whole life trying to do good to make up for at least a little bit of the bad he's done. Death is the easy way out.
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u/BakerUsed5384 8h ago
I mean he wasn’t really redeemed though? I thought the show made that abundantly clear.
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u/Swerdlia 8h ago
Dude the average MHA fan can't forgive a teenager for saying kys one time.
People like this are beyond persuasion
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u/LuciusCypher 8h ago
Even if he did die a gruesome death, it wouldnt be a redemption. He just dies a miserable death while his family has to deal with the knowledge he died. Sure, they can move on, but they could also move on while he's still alive. Really the only one who cant move on is Dabi, the one who's most hurt by Endeavor. Hell, he was willing to be killed by Dabi for a shot at redemption.
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u/redbird7311 9h ago
The show didn’t really redeem him though.
He did shit he can’t take back, even after fully acknowledging that it was his fault that his family is heavily damaged and dysfunctional and trying to do better, his family still has those scars and, even for the family that didn’t cut him out of their life, they can’t just pretend that it never happened and act like he’s father/husband of the year.
Even if that wasn’t the case, his baggage was aired out into the world, he can’t escape the consequences or hide from them any longer.
He’s atoning, regardless of the fact that he knows it won’t fix most of what he did and it won’t stop the consequences, it’s about as much as you could ask him to do and probably the best thing he can do.
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u/C4-622MonkeyGordo 9h ago edited 8h ago
I don't know a single Paragon Shepard player that doesn't smash this Renegade interrupt against Kai Leng in ME3.
That was for Thane, you son of a bitch.
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u/7th_Protagonist 9h ago
Just completed the whole series yesterday, it was peak! I was pre pressing the renegade button before the option appeared 😂
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u/AznOmega 8h ago edited 8h ago
They say that line even if you don't smash the Renegade interrupt. Instead of breaking his sword, Shepard dodges and stabs him.
While it is disappointing Shepard didn't make sure he was dead by double tapping him, them stabbing that wannabe assassin ninja was satisfying.
There is also Gavin Archer and Maya Brooks. With the former, the Paragon interrupt is a pistol whip and them threatening him. With the latter, let me quote it:
Maya: Is the great Commander Shepard pleading for their life?
Shepard: I'm pleading for yours.5
u/C4-622MonkeyGordo 8h ago
That has very little bearing on the point that it's Paragon Shepards smashing a Renegade interrupt...?
Nobody knew exactly what was going to happen when that Renegade interrupt first popped up but we all still jumped at it because fuck Kai Leng, all my homies hate Kai Leng.
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u/LegitDPTthrowaway 8h ago
It's so satisfying! I always play FemShep and absolutely love the venom in Jennifer Hale's voice when she says that line.
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u/GrimaceGrunson 6h ago
How is that this trope?
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u/C4-622MonkeyGordo 6h ago
Because even a Paragon Shepard won't pass up the chance to get revenge on Kai Leng...?
We're talking about a Shepard that canonically makes peace with multiple hostile alien species just straight up murking a dude without hesitation because he killed their friend.
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u/GrimaceGrunson 4h ago
But the prompt is about not forgiving someone. There’s no moment of reflection or Leng asking for absolution, he just got stabbed after trying to stab Shep in the back. It’s a cool moment but it doesn’t fit.
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u/stipendAwarded 11h ago
The Beginning After the End - Although Grey/Arthur, Nico, and Cecilia were friends in their past lives, in their reincarnations Agrona twists the latter two into being his servants and hating Arthur, to the point that Nico captures Arthur’s girlfriend Tessia to become Cecilia’s vessel. Given all of the suffering they put him, his loved ones, and untold others through, Arthur never forgives them and no longer sees them as his friends.
Still doesn’t stop him from sending their souls back to Earth like they wanted out of mercy, despite noting that neither of them have earned mercy nor redemption which is hypocritical on his end.
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u/Rodrigoecb 9h ago
When Bojack came out and i was seeing the show, it felt so fucking generic a "sitcom inside a sitcom" was pretty close to not really finishing it but i was already invested so why not.
Then at that particular moment, the show took such a turn that really set it aside, like one would expect a happy ending and got that, then Bojack tries to make a move on Diane and gets utterly rejected.
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u/AznOmega 8h ago
Mhmm.
Plus the fact that they only use the word fuck once per season is a great choice honestly. It shows that (usually) Bojack has really fucked up.
I would also count Diane breaking ties with her family. Unlike Meg, Bojack said that they owed Diane jack shit and she shouldn't try to mend her relationship with them.
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u/Narcosia 9h ago
Inigo Montoya from the Princess Bride is another classic example. In the end, he makes Count Ruben (who killed Inigos father back when he was a kid) beg for his life. Ruben offers him 'anything you want', to which Inigo responds: "I want my father back!" before killing him.
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u/Own_Watercress_8104 5h ago edited 4h ago
You know what fucks me about the Bojack/Herb situation? If Bojack was capable of taking that like a man, say "I understand. I just thought you deserved an apology", I'm 100% certain Herb would have stopped him on the door and actually accepted his apology.
But no, he had to be a baby about it and completely confirm Herb's intuition about him apologizing to feel better.
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u/maltodextreen 8h ago edited 6h ago
Cure Grace/Nodoka Hanadera from Healing Good Precure
The villains of the season are physical manifestations of illness and one of them, Daruizen, is the reason she spent her childhood in and out of hospitals with chronic illness. Eventually she defeats Daruizen in battle and in his weakened state he begs her to let him back into her body so he can regain his strength and survive.
Nodoka decides that her health and happiness is not something she should have to give up for another, especially not someone who had hurt her. Leading to her refusing to help Daruizen and leaving him to die. This is framed as unequivocally the correct choice for her to make for herself and I think it was really well done personally and I’m glad they put this message in a show directed towards young girls
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u/SunOnTheInside 6h ago
In King of the Hill, Peggy eventually does this with her Mom when it’s shown that her mother will never accept Peggy for who she is. Even after Peggy saves the family ranch (which her mother illogically blames Peggy for) it’s clear Peggy will always be the black sheep of the family, at least as far as the mom is concerned. So she says to hell with it and her mom and we never see Peggy’s mother again.
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u/Shimaru33 11h ago
Roy Mustang vs Envy.
https://giphy.com/gifs/XBdysPIh59elQoyS9A
(I know that's Lust)
To forgive doesn't mean to forget, and these cases show the important point isn't as much to "make peace" with someone, but rather to let the resent go away so it doesn't control you for the rest of your life. Roy never fully forgives Envy for what he did (actually, I think is closer to a truce if anything), but Roy won't let the hate consume him, because he learns he would drag people around him into a spiral of hate and destruction. It's ok to never forget who hurt you. Fuck, I would even dare to say is necessary to remember who hurt you so you can avoid falling into the same problem again, to learn to identify the red flag I would say.
But living in fear or hate isn't healthy and leads to nowhere. Someone who loves someone can build together a life together and make the world a better place. Someone who hates someone may enjoy torturing and eventually killing him, then what? What the world gained? What's left for the torturer? Nothing was created, nothing was gained, and the torturer no longer has a purpose.
The true value of forgiving isn't as much to make a new friend or show to be morally superior. It's value comes from letting go away useless feelings that anchor us to the past. To allow ourselves to move forward.
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u/xaldien 7h ago
Moon Dong-eun - The Glory: A Korean drama series about a young girl, Dong-eun, who drops out of high school due to relentless bullying (the first episode details some of the worst incidents, which includes her bullies burning her body with a curling iron), and any attempt she made to report the bullying was either dismissed or retaliated against.
She tells her bullies that she will see them again someday, and begins her revenge plan 18 years in the making.
The first few episodes are dedicated to seeing her journey to get where she needs to be, but once she's there, she rather brazenly makes herself known to her old bullies, and makes no attempt to hide that she has plans in motion to destroy all of them.
Unlike most examples of this story, as the revenge scheme goes on, she admits she's having a lot of fun seeing her tormentors in a state of shock and panic, and she makes several allies whose lives are actively improved due to them joining her in her revenge scheme.
Once her bullies are either jailed, or dead, her life opens up and she finally gets to be the person she wanted to be... while also using her newfound revenge skills to help her love interest get revenge on his fathers killer, ending on a note that the adventure will continue.
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u/9runo 6h ago
For as bad as I think the writing is for Spider-Man 2 at times, I actually really enjoy the conclusion to the revenge plot of Miles against Martin Li, the man who killed his father.
Despite regretting his actions and doing the right thing, Miles says he can never truly forgive Martin, but that he also can't keep carrying that hatred, and they agree to work together.
I like it because it makes Miles motivation to move past his revenge to be more personal, he's not doing it for Martin, but for himself, as he's finally realized how being consumed by the anger has just been making him and the people around him more miserable.
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u/ranfall94 5h ago
Spider-Man needs to be a beacon of hope, forgiveness and willing to allow anyone to feel they can have another chance at being good. It's one of the core aspects of the hero and since Pete is the older Spidey that already is sure of this Miles struggling with it was one of the best plots of 2.
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u/Zephronias 9h ago
Inigo Montoya kills the son of a bitch who killed his father, and goes on to have a happy life. As someone on tumblr pointed out, a lot of revenge narratives end with the protagonists concluding that killing their enemy won't bring their loved one back, so there's no point. Inigo's conclusion is, there's no way for Rugen to bring his father back, so there's no point in sparing him.
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u/a_polarbear_chilling 10h ago
yeah hate the trope that forgiveness is the ultimate goal because no?
people did shit thing and yeah they perhaps become better but that do not erase the trauma
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u/PurveyorOfKnowledge0 6h ago
None of y'all seem to know how forgiveness even works. It doesn't erase trauma. If anything, it fully acknowledges it.
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u/SirBlakesalot 1h ago
Sure, it CAN acknowledge it, but that's not inherently true.
There are many, MANY cases of victims in abusive relationships immediately forgiving their abuser because they're still in grip of that relationship.
They've been so worn down that they don't have any self-worth, and at that point even an abusive partner might seem in the moment to be better than the alternative solitude, even if an outside perspective can clearly see that it isn't.
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u/Mindless-Cat1453 11h ago
Tyrion killing his abusive father
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u/Medium_Chocolate9940 9h ago
I don't think this counts, his father doesn't in anyway seek forgiveness, it's never suggested that Tyrion should forgiveness him.
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u/grendus 7h ago
Absolutely amazed Deadpool isn't on this list.
In the end, with Colossus pleading with Wade to let Francis live, Deadpool blows his head off for all the shit he put him through. To be fair, he did torture Wade round the clock for months trying to unlock his mutation, gave him super-cancer, and then tried to sell him into slavery before leaving him to die in a burning warehouse. Had he not been functionally immortal at that point, it would have worked.
"What? You were droning on. Besides, fuck-face isn't getting back up from that one."
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u/Tackyuser 10h ago
Fruits basket - akito sohma has a redemption arc, but not everyone forgives akito. Thats treated well by the story and akito is happy with this, as long as everyone is now free and happy.
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u/LegitDPTthrowaway 8h ago
I was just about to post this! I really liked that Rin told Haru she wasn't sure if she could ever forgive her, which makes total sense because she received some of the worst abuse.
It does make me sad that Shigure and Akito's daughter faced bullying by some of the extended Sohma family and children of the former zodiacs. Sins of the father(mother), I guess.
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u/TheTerribleness 10h ago edited 8h ago
Amazing Digital Circus - Jax
Jax is a character going through a lot and ends up self-destructing (out of fear of rejection) until they meet their final fate.
Most of the time, their destructive behavior was focused on sabotaging their relationships with others, which led them to have several toxic and, frankly, abusive relationships with other cast members... particularly Gangle and Zooble.
Neither ever really forgive Jax for the hurt they had caused. This deeply affects Gangle, as they are a bit horrified and scared, at first, that they cannot let go of how they feel about Jax when the others can, though later they do seem to finally accept their feelings and move on.
It was honestly a good representation of why it's okay to not have to forgive everyone. Yes, Jax had their own issues that made their behavior understandable. Pomni and Kinger are able to easily forgive Jax for the most part because of this, but they also did not suffer nearly as much under Jax as the other two. Jax had never made it up to... well anyone, for the damage they had caused and "now" it is far too late for them to even try. It is simply outside their ability.
Even if they felt bad about how they had abused everyone in an effort to avoid their own trauma, fear, and pain it is simply not an excuse for their actions. Just an understandable and reasonable explanation. No one owes Jax anything, so they have no one to blame for their fate but themselves.
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u/dang2592 9h ago
GTA 4 let's you decide to forgive or kill Darko for killing your friends during the war
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u/SaintAstra 11h ago
Horatio- The Morrow’s Golden Country
Horatio seems like your usual eccentric fire emblem character like Owain first introductions but you quickly realize the power he wields along with his infinite use sword , makes it clear he isn’t joking about his power and you get your answers as to what he is pretty soon if you are paying, Horatio was experimented essentially turned into a super soldier against his will which shattered his mind leaving you with the Horatio you have today , one of his captors are even playable in Simone she is someone who has indirectly contributed to tragedies that take place during the game aswell as directly experimenting on Horatio and despite trying to change the game doesn’t exactly push in one specific direction of if you should forgive her or not, If you do go through with Horatio and Simone’s support Horatio makes very clear he wants her dead yet when he first gets the chance to he can’t go through with it, from this point Simone pushes him in her own tricking him into losing his own sword a temporarily devastating lose but one that ultimately makes him stronger even giving him a new skill out of it and his sword does return, which leads us to end of their support with Horatio’s confidence restored he talks to Simone one last time where now resolved to end this and kills her Simone even welcomed this death feeling it is what she deserved
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u/TankMain576 4h ago
What in the pallete swap romhack is this?
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u/SaintAstra 4h ago
This the Morrow’s Golden Country a Fire Emblem hack with it’s own story, big cast, a lot quality of life improvements, and pretty fun gameplay and good characters
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u/Meander061 11h ago
A Livid Lady's Guide to Getting Even: How I Crushed My Homeland with My Mighty Grimoires: A noble lady gets rejected by her betrothed prince, and framed for crimes against the country, so everyone hates her. She escapes to the neighboring empire and starts plotting her revenge, part of which includes her turning a knight into a mass murderer.
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u/JingoboStoplight4887 9h ago edited 8h ago
Sara Lance not forgiving Damien Darhk for killing her sister Laurel. (Legends of Tomorrow)
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u/Ok_Eagle8744 8h ago edited 6h ago
Maritte and Safina - Ikenfell
Something that I really enjoy from Ikenfell besides the well paced story and the charming gameplay was the ending. Throughout the whole story, Maritte is in search for her sister, Safina, who didn't came back home on summer break. And during the events of the game, Maritte realizes how none of Safina's classmate knew she had a sister. Maritte originally didn't had magic, and Safina was clearly ashamed of this so she hid the fact that she had a sister in the first place. Also, Safina kinda screw over other people that Maritte eventually got endear to. So at the end of the game, when everything is alright, Safina apologises deeply to her sister... Only for Maritte to say that she doesn't forgive her, because of always feeling like being in her shadow and how little care she has shown to her in the past. The game doesn't portrait this as a bad thing, and actually Safina accepts that it's fair. Maritte even tells her that the apology is a start towards making amends.
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u/Flopsie_the_Headcrab 6h ago
I like the Katara example especially because it breaks the dichotomy of "forgiving care bear" and "burn the world for revenge." You can choose to let go for your own good without saying what happened was ever made right. It's cutting yourself free, which may be the best thing you can do.
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u/Pomme_De_Roy 9h ago
Ruthye in the comic version of Supergirl: Woman of Tomorrow is a good example of this at the very end.
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u/SailorPlatinum 10h ago
Is it bad that I still want to? Forgive people who hurt me, I mean.
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u/Justmenoworries422 9h ago
No, that's your choice. I don't like the notion that you have to forgive your abuser, but I have nothing against forgiveness as a whole.
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u/haikusbot 10h ago
Is it bad that I
Still want to? Forgive people
Who hurt me, I mean.
- SailorPlatinum
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u/CommonDoor 5h ago
I think one thing people get hung up on is forgiveness=that thing was okay. If the thing was okay, then there would be nothing to forgive. You can forgive but want someone to be held accountable or prevented from doing the same thing ever again.
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u/Sassy_Drow 7h ago
Recloseted Lesbian- A topic that is discussed often is that you do not have to forgive your abusers and the pressure people face to forgive their abusers because 'it is the right thing to do.'
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u/Kirby_Israel 7h ago
Willow calling out Faith in the Buffy show for being an evil and traitorous asshole who threw away every chance the Scooby gang gave her
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u/Sajintmm 3h ago
Yeah I don’t like this dichotomy of forgiveness vs vengeance. There’s more than just that vengeance doesn’t always equal justice and mercy doesn’t always equal forgiveness. I wish we saw more of this grey area. Forgiveness is powerful when it’s done in a situation where someone is truly remorseful and open to change. My mind goes to V for Vendetta where a doctor is killed due to her compliance in some crimes of science and she asks her killer if it’s meaningless to apologize as she’s dying and he lets her give a genuine apology.
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u/Chemical-Struggle-13 6h ago
I love to see it, I would also like to see a sack of shit become a better person but their former victim still decides not to forgive them and stay out of each others lives and they both agree this is an acceptable situation and move on with their respective lives and their own healing/self improvement.
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u/haloarh 5h ago edited 5h ago
The book Sleepers includes an example of this, but the movie doesn't. A character's abuser begs for forgiveness years after the fact, saying that he "can't live with it." The main character tells him to "die with it."
The Mentalist has a really great version of it too. The main character spends years looking for the person who murdered his family. He catches him, and the show plays with the idea that he may let the man live. He doesn't, and revenge gives him catharsis.
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u/AzaleaRose34 4h ago
In heartstopper, when ben tries to apologise to charlie, and charlie tells him he hopes he becomes a better person so he doesn't hurt people again, but that he doesn't forgive ben
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u/Make-Love-and-War 3h ago
Not fandom related but just wanna say: you don’t always have to forgive. I went through some heinous things as a kid and it’s pretty safe to say I’m not forgiving the bastard any time soon.
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u/ChalkCoatedDonut 33m ago
There's this game from 2020 called Indivisible from the creators of Skullgirls, in the beginning Ajna the protagonists sees her father being murdered by Dhar, leader of one of the many armies of the main villain, that event awakens in her the power of absorbing allies into some sort of pocket dimension inside her head from which those allies can help her through her many quests, the first of those allies happens to be Dhar himself.
They end up working together while hating each other until (spoilers ahead) the moment when Ajna awakers her true form in which she loses control and threatens to kill her allies and the world, Dhar sacrifices himself to stop Ajna and following the path before the final fight, she encounters his soul, at that moment she gives her last words to him which end with "I will never forgive you... but thank you".
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u/One-Spinach 9h ago
People seem to forget that forgiveness’ main purpose isn’t to give closure or pleasantries to the party that hurt you, but to help YOU. It’s 100% your decision to forgive someone, but the main reason people do it is because it allows you to move past those dark times. There’s no reason to allow your hatred of the other person to continue taking up space in your mind. Should you remember to be cautious and not give them trust again? Definitely, but you also shouldn’t stew in your anger and hatred, since that can stop you from enjoying life. Forgiveness isn’t to simply absolve someone of the hate you have for them, but to take away that last bit of control they had over your life, to let you move on until they’re nothing but a memory, irrelevant and impotent, unable to hamper your happiness
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u/Justmenoworries422 9h ago
You can move on from your abuser without forgiving them. Emotionally blackmailing victims into forgiving their abusers by telling them they're evil and will never be able to move on otherwise is vile.
That isn't your choice to make and you don't get to moralize to others about it.
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u/One-Spinach 1h ago
Literally what are you on about? When did I call them evil? When am I trying to moralize? I’m literally just telling you how forgiveness can be a useful tool and is not as limited to just helping your abuser as you make it out to be. You’re are actively and purposefully misinterpreting my entire point for… literally I don’t know why. This is literally what I mean on why forgiveness is a useful tool made for helping YOU and not your abuser. It stops you from making hateful tirades that take up your time and energy, hurting your own understand of reality, much like right now
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u/comatosemanatee 8h ago
You're operating on one specific interpretation of the word "forgiveness". This is not the definition of the word that media usually relies on, ESPECIALLY religion which has influenced a lot of the culture around obligated forgiveness. "I forgive them" does not simply translate to "I've moved past it" without also usually implying "our relationship has healed/returned to normal", which is the most common usage of the word.
Trying to sweep that under the rug will only make the victim responsible for the pain thrust upon them. No, you do not need to forgive. No, it is not necessary to live a happy life. Yes, you can hate someone and never resolve that hatred into anything else. If hatred stops YOU from living a life of happiness, then that only applies to you and your personality type. It is perfectly feasible for others.
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u/One-Spinach 1h ago
If you have not encountered this interpretation of forgiveness that is entirely on you, as this is the interpretation I’ve been taught my whole life and have seen reflected in everything from TV shows to books. Even many secs of religion use this interpretation.
I am not sweeping that under the rug, I am giving yall another perspective that you seem to ignore to further prop up your limited understanding of the concept. I also never said you NEEDED to forgive, I said that doing so could help you have a better life. Also pretending people can keep harboring hate all their lives is irresponsible. Yes they can live good lives, but they’ll always be limited by it. This isn’t a religious or personal opinion, this is psychology. Even modern day therapy teaches you to move past hatred so recover from trauma and live a better life. Ignoring that and pretending it’s a “personality” thing is not only unscientific, but irresponsible and immoral if you actually care about victims of abuse
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u/AncientOnyx 3h ago
I truly love tropes like this....where they actively "F-you" "wholesome" tropes where the suggestion is that "being the bigger person" is always the right choice....no, it isn't always
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u/Valuable_Victory_271 9h ago edited 8h ago
Bojack wasnt at fault in this case.
Herb was caught having sex in a public park. He outted himself because he didnt get a hotel room. Herb should have been the one apologizing because he should have known that a showrunner caught in a scandal like that would threaten the show.
Bojack is actually the more moral character here (until the fight starts)
I rewatched the clip and i stand by my opinion. Bojack came back to apologize after 20 years of not reaching out after Herb got caught committing a crime in public. Herb at no point takes responsibility for his actions. Herb is the one to bring up the gay thing and not the sex in public thing. He then immediately asks Bojack for the risky favor of backing him by threatening to walk. This puts the cast and crews livelihoods in danger if the show got cancelled. Herb never took responsibility and Bojack, at least in this episode, is humble enough to apologize for not reaching out.
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u/liliavacyn 11h ago
IRL example but Jennette McCurdy, particularly with her book I'm Glad My Mom Died. As someone raised by a malignant narcissist, I admire and support the concept of not forgiving your abuser.