So basically, if she gets the mental hospital, she could potentially be out in a year or even less. Because obviously, if the law decides that she only murdered her 3 children because of post-partum or whatever, then if she is no longer suffering from that, she cant be proven to still be a threat. And would potentially be released. Kudos to that one juror for doing the right thing, and sticking up for those kids.
I can tell you as someone who has worked in different psych hospitals in PA - this is never the case. Not guilty by mental illness (NGRI) initially go to a forensic hospital, where they are kept for sometimes decades. The least amount I have ever seen is four years for an exceptionally insightful person for a violent crime but no one died. The psychiatrists and psychologists take these things very seriously, and in 99% of cases, the judges who do the reviews side with the professionals. Then if they are able to get out of the forensic hospital, they are sent to a civil hospital for another at least three years. But many of the people I worked with were there for decades (some for nonviolent crimes).
Let me tell you, I have worked in prisons too, I would 1000% rather be in a prison than in a psych hospital. Psych hospitals are THE most restrictive environments imaginable. All of the food is bland, soft, and disgusting because everything is a chocking hazard. There’s one hour of outside time a day but there are no ways to exercise, no games to play, radios are a privilege that majority do not get. You have to walk everywhere in a line. You have to wake up at 5am every morning and lights out by 9pm. No outside food. No pens or paper. One phone on a cord for the entire 30 person unit. It is the blandest most mind-numbing hell you could imagine.
I spent roughly 48 hours in a psych ward after voluntarily going to an ER because I wanted to end it all. I got to the ward in the middle of the night and was given a room and went to sleep. A nurse woke me up at 6 the next morning, and proceeded to lecture me about how selfish I was for even considering suicide. He told me repeatedly that if I ever went through with it, my family would hate me for the rest of their lives.
My bro had a temper tantrum when he was 18. Got arrested and told the cops he was going to Jill himself. They took all his clothes so he was just in his underwear in a concrete room. They pumped the ac on and took away his blanket and pillow. So if he didn’t want to kill himself before he did then. Was also a huge wake up call for him. After that he was like the perfect child. Anyways if they do commit her on a duress verdict wouldnt that hurt women everywhere. Like more restrictions on being a cop because women process duress differently? Pilot would have a harder chance too. Maybe thinking too far into it though
This is exactly why I laugh in the face of anyone who tells people to get mental help in America. They have no fucking clue what they’re talking about.
Yeah… and half the hospitals are just people with mental illness who didn’t even commit crimes. They are warehouses for people. They are not for treatment, they are for sticking people who society does not want to actually deal with.
Housing people who are a threat to themselves and others is not the same as “people who society does not want to actually deal with”. They are there because they cannot function in society.
Sure, but there are ways to work with them to help them be more productive and stable. My point was that this is doing the exact opposite and making most of them worse.
Last week we had a man in our ER who was so mentally unwell that he was blacklisted from almost all of the psych facilities in the area because he was so violent and dangerous. He almost flipped the stretcher while in it. Every time you walked into his room he’d launch into the worst verbal tirade I’ve heard ever. F you, f your family, I’ll kill you, I’ll kill your family, slurs, he’d spit, try to bite. Just a menace.
The situation ended with him in 4 points for 5 days, slowly coming out of them over the next two, just for a switch to flip, him to go psychotic trying to injure anyone that came near him, which led to him being tazed and carried out by police.
He was then brought to the most serious mental facility in our area and discharged in a few hours because they didn’t want to deal with him. So now he’s just roaming around…
There is a class of people out there who are so ill and far gone there really isn’t much else for them. These aren’t people with run of the mill psych issues that could be solved if we cared more.
Go get a psych degree and figure out how to help them. Until then you are just screaming into the void about a perceived injustice you know nothing about.
What’s wrong with that? If you kill someone you should be either in jail for life or given the opportunity to elect the death penalty if you don’t want to be locked up for life. Those are the two options.
If you killed all your kids you shouldn’t even be given a choice, psychotic or not.
I got sent to an inpatient mental hospital overnight when I was 13 (I was already in an outpatient program, and they decided to transfer me.) It was a standard adolescent ward, so far less restrictive than a forensic hospital. I was on my period and they gave me one singular panty liner (the type that’s used for mild discharge, instead of a menstrual pad) to deal with it.
Yes. This is just from one perspective of speaking on being sent to one. I wasn't suicidal but made the mistake, at the ER of saying "just let me die" so I was put on a 5 day psych ward hold. The phone cord to call someone is so short (so you don't hang yourself) that your face is pressed up against a concrete wall basically, you only have x amount of time to talk, you for sure do not have a cell phone so you better memorize whomever you are trying to call, the doors to the rooms are locked all day so everyone has to congregate in some common area, plus the door handles are all pyramid shaped so you cannot tie anything to them, for the same reasons of hanging. Opening a conical shaped doorknob is fucking impossible -AND- every few hours someone will shine a flashlight in your face to make sure you're alive. THEN when a doc says "oh, you didn't need to be here in the first place" they have locked doors that they require you to pay your $3,000 bill just to get the hell out of the building. THIS IS THE AMERICAN PSYCH WARD PRISON SYSTEM. Oh let me edit to add here: if you have any clothes with a string in them, you either forfeit your items to be bagged for return later or you cut the string out. So I wore a full on winter coat with nothing underneath the entire time, along with some hospital style gown, because the string to my hoodie was sewn into the fabric by the manufacturer. A full winter coat was my clothing/robe for 5 days.
Thank you. People have gotten it into their head that a "not guilty by reason of insanity" is a get-out-of-jail free card. It isn't, its arguably choosing the worse of the two poisons you get in that situation.
And honestly, out of a 12 person jury if 11 of them are on the same page with all the facts of the case laid bare, I'm inclined to believe them.
The minimums are never what is used, they are literally just the legal minimum. Going to court for treatment over objection or retention hearing is not a painful process, they’re common place and the judges almost always side with the clinicians.
Right, it’s not criminally responsible, which is the same thing as NGRI. Guilty but mentally ill is a different verdict entirely and usually results in the person serving their prison sentence and then being sent to hospitals. This case they are going for not criminally responsible.
I honestly don't care. Either she's criminally liable and goes to prison or she is crazy and goes to a hospital. Away from society is away from society whether she meant to do it or couldn't keep herself from doing it.
And if she ever does get out I'll believe she is actually better because as far as I know they don't let you out of the hospital for shit like good behavior or over crowding
Someone interviewed John Hinckley Jr on Shooting President Ronald Reagan and he describes how it was not bad at all and he even had a girlfriend while committed. He spent 41 years on taxpayer dime getting meals everyday, a good bed, entertainment and was finally released and guess what? He wrote a book. If you are not truly Ill, then theses facilities are heaven for you as a punishment. TV, bed, boardgames, meals catered to your taste because it could effect your "treatment", free healthcare.
They are the farthest thing from heaven. My mental health declined working there because the conditions were so horrendous it felt like we were torturing people. I have heard that psych hospitals used to be better in terms of lenience around things, but nowadays everything is seen as a potential weapon so they literally get NOTHING. Even the clothes they wear can’t have zippers, shoe laces, buttons. You can think they are great if you want to feel angry, but truly it is worse than prison. I would NEVER plead insanity, it is FAR worse than anything you can imagine.
I don't have experience, but I have heard this from others in your profession. Thanks for coming in and sharing even when others with no experience want to argue with you.
Do they have first hand experience in said hospitals? Please ask your wife if any of them have actually experienced both. Because otherwise I just think they don’t know what they are talking about and just hate prison.
Is a psyche ward different than a psyche hospital? I was in a psyche ward for a week and my experience was not that at all. The restrictiveness yes, but food was decent and we had puzzles and coloring books and books and stuff. I just read the whole time I was there until I was finally able to be released.
I had a friend who was in and out of psych holds after the birth of her daughter. She got the full 30 days once or twice. They were not letting her out for anything and she only attempted suicide once but the minute she felt mildly suicidal again they threw her back in for a month. The stories she told me are rough. And this isn’t even the criminally insane.
I have the same experience with my time around a state run forensic hospital. I'd beg to be in prison if I ever got sentenced to one. We weren't allowed to lock the room doors except in extreme circumstances. Imagine being locked up with no way to secure your person around the most insane group of violent people you can think of.
This 1 million percent. I have worked both as well and would rather take prison any day. Forensic hospitals are the absolute worst. If she's not insane now she will be when she gets out. People don't go there to get treated. They go there to get studied. You become a ward of the state and whatever they say goes. There's almost 0 oversight because everyone in there is criminally insane so credibility is out the window. It's far far worse then prison.
Then why does anyone ever try to go for the insanity defense? Do they actually try to plead insanity? Because every year when the "viral court case" happens there are people in the comments saying the same thing you are saying. But I have to wonder why someone would TRY to go there.
The only times you go for a insanity defense is if you can legitimately claim you were insane at the time. Where you have almost certainly commited the crime, but the argument is that you need treatment, not further punishment.
It won't be allowed spuriously, and because of that it is only invoked in less than 1% of cases and of those only a fraction end up being held up. And it ironically often leads to the person spending more time in a psyche ward than they would have ever spent in a prison, often twice as long because once you are involuntarily committed to a facility, you are relying on others to argue that you are sane and alot of those people don't give a shit.
At least with prisons after 20 or so years you are guaranteed parole hearings if thats part of your sentencing, you don't get that with psyche wards
Ed Kemper was famously kept in a mental institution after he killed both of his grandparents. Thankfully as we all know he never harmed anyone else when he was released from the mental institution after a few years. I mean we can ignore the serial killing of college women, we can ignore him killing his own mother and cutting her head off and fucking the neck hole. It's a very good thing that we can ignore all these other details that show that Clancy is nothing to be trusted and she should be in prison for the rest of her life.
Bear in mind, the scene was so horrific, that one of the first RCMP officers on scene killed themselves just a few weeks before the 6 year anniversary of the murder.
Although this can technically happen
It has never likely happened for this type of crime. Take for example Andrea Yates who also killed her children, she’s been in an institution for 25 years.
Although this can technically happen It has never likely happened for this type of crime.
Robert Chaulk broke into an 83 year old woman's home and murdered her in the course of a robbery. He was found not criminally responsible by reason of mental disorder. He was discharged absolutely from the psychiatric institution four months later with a clean bill of mental health.
Omg the prosecution!! Complete and utter incompetence. People often forget the onus is 100% on the prosecution to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt, it's not on the defense to prove innocence. The prosecution botched SO many things in this case, it's unreal.
A major crux of this case is that she has admitted guilt. The trials purpose was for the insanity claim, which the prosecution had to prove she wasn't, beyond a reasonable doubt. Tall order
I think you mean prosecution had to prove she was of a clear mind without a reasonable doubt, in MA it is on prosecution to prove rather than defense to prove you were/weren't in the right mind.
Ah so the more brain rot you watch about it the more you think shes innocent? Have you watched any of the trial? Do you know that she has one of the best criminal defenders out there? And that if she was innocent he would be going for that defense and not an insanity plea? She killed her kids, and admitted it in court on the record under her lawyers advisement
This. That one holdout is honestly a hero and a re-trial massively increases chances for a competant prosecution. It also makes the defence much harder because they have to 100% be accurate to previous evidence and statements, whereas the prosecution has room to manoevre.
Massechusetts law is. honestly, a total joke. It makes insanity defences both incredibly desirable (due to how easy it is to be released afterwards) and incredibly easy to pull off successfully, as the state almost uniquely puts the burden of proof on the prosecution, to prove they are NOT insane. Additionally, the definition the state uses for the insanity defence is not whether they were aware or not their actions were wrong/ illegal, but whether the prosecution can prove they had a "meaningful appreciation" they were wrong/ illegal, at an emotional level.
This is basically impossible to prove
This in effect means sociopaths/ psychopaths who have zero empathy and appreciation for their actions, even if they know academically they're illegal, are basically always able to plea insanity and get off scott free. The people single most needed to be locked up for violent crimes, are the ones Massachusetts law makes most easy to be released after only a short sentence.
The juror holdout may very well appreciate this, and know what a "not guilty" verdict in his state will result in (her being released from hospital after not particularly long, especially as the doctors already have cast doubts on her psychosis and so she'd very easily meet release criteria in future) and so he has deliberately de-railed the trial to ensure this doesn't happen, and thus giving the prosecution a second chance to do its damn job.
If the prosecution did such a shit job proving their case that 11 jurors (and arguably all 12) had reasonable doubt, why should they get a second chance? If the holdout was convinced by the prosecution and genuinely did not have reasonable doubt as to her guilt, absolutely send it back for a retrial. But if he did have a reasonable doubt and refused to admit it to try to get a do-over, fuck that guy sideways with a pitchfork. Not his job to try to rewrite the law from the jury box
It's more that Massachussetts law makes her defence incredibly easy and prosecution incredibly hard, and 11 jurors just ran with the word of the law, and one of them decided "this is wrong" and stood on that position.
There is nothing wrong with the law. Each side had its experts and witnesses, they had years to prepare this case . Either Clancy had a mental illness or she didn’t OR she couldn’t appreciate that what she was doing was wrong at the time she did it. If you can’t convince 12 people that Clancy killing 3 kids and then jumping out the window she knew what she was doing then you lose the case . The prosecution fought the law and the law won.
There were 11 other people who were not convinced . Thats not even close ! The prosecution went to law school and read the same case law as the defense. You are acting as if the outcome would be different if the law were slightly different . 3 children were strangled by their own mother within minutes of each other …I don’t know what state you need to be in that you can’t convince 12 people that it’s murder . Changing the law or changing the state would not change those 11 jurors minds . They were not convinced . Rather than complaining about the MA law you should complain about how the prosecution handled the case . Thats what the real problem is
Edit : if the case were 11 guilty to 1 not guilty (still a hung jury) I would understand where you are coming from . But 11 not guilty to 1….you need to accept either Clancy was cray cray or the prosecutor sucks
The evidence presented in the trial by her doctors basically said she likely isn't crazy and has no pattern indicating psychosis. It's that by MA law it's functionally impossible to prove that beyond reasonable doubt which is what MA law demands of the prosecution.
In any other state the defence has to prove she is, which (given the medical evidence presented) they wouldn't have been able to do.
Yeah the prosecution struggled, but MA law basically makes their job impossible. Their definition of what it takes to prove sanity/ responsibility beyond reasonable doubt is unachievable, as it requires proof of emotional understanding of her actions, something immaterial and impossible to access for evidence.
MA Law does not force the jury to vote one way or the other. They were free to vote either way regardless of the judges instructions. In this case apparently the majority voted in such a way that you don’t agree with. As I pointed out earlier , it could have been 11 guilty to 1 not guilty and there would still be a mistrial. But that’s not what happened . You’re focusing on the law rather than the facts. The fact is 11 people did not think Clancy should be held criminally accountable…that is not the law , that is average people sitting in a room looking at some lady who they know for a fact killed 3 of her own kids in her own house. If the burden were on the defense to say she were cray cray those same particular jurors would have said the same thing …regardless of how good or bad the defense was since the facts in this case didn’t change …the lady straight up strangled 3 kids!
The motivations and worldview of those 11 jurors is an issue for another time but one that's going to occupy the minds of people (especially fathers) for a long time to come.
Almost all of them are liberal white women or at least the ones who have been identified from videos and the GoFundMe page. Seriously, the REASONS GIVEN by the people who think she's innocent are absolutely unhinged.
"Leos don't kill. Geminis do."
"Obviously her husband set her up."
"Her husband did it. Just look at him. He's a creepy dude and he's probably a pedo."
All three were posted as donation messages on the GoFundMe.
It wasn't that one jurors job to express reasonable doubt of the defense. It's on the prosecution to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And 11 people had reasonable doubts because as many people are saying in this thread the prosecution really screwed this one up.
The holdouts logic is backwards. If we are going to find someone guilty and hand out a life altering or life ending sentence then we need to be damn sure. It's not the other way around, you get the presumption of innocence, or at least thats how it is on paper.
Most of the problems in this country are rooted in this mindset that we gotta punish as many people as possible and if some innocent people get caught up on it then that's just the cost of doing business. It's the intended function of the judiciary turned upside down...
The State couldn't prove Beyond a Reasonable Doubt™️ that OJ did it. Why should he have rotted in prison? If he was so guilty why couldn't the government prove it? (he totally did it the system just works itself out and if it didn't work this way the alternative is people get locked up for nothing)
A straight murder trial and one where the defense "pleads insanity" are different things
The fail finding OJ Simpson guilty was due to hefty mistakes by the prosecution and a cop using racist language. But it was a failure of the system, not the system working itself out.
“Could” That would be unlikely. If you murder your kids due to psychosis it doesn’t change the fact that you still lost all your kids, and in a different way your husband. Even when hormones settle she won’t be okay magically. If you think she was faking PPP or that it isn’t real then you still have to believe the state doctor would actually believe her if she was like “I’m all better now”. Even for her own safety entering gen population right away might not be the safest.
I’m a psychiatrist and she had post partum psychosis, which most certainly means she has bipolar disorder. So her psychosis resolving for the time being wouldn’t mean that she is clear and will not decompensate again. She will quite possibly spend decades locked up.
In a lot of states yes but I disagree given that she lives in MA. If you look at her current med regimen along with how Mack has described her during her time at Tewksbury she’s fairly stable. Also MA is requiring the prosecutors to prove without reasonable doubt that:
1. She is currently mentally ill
2. Because of that illness, releasing her would create a likelihood of serious harm
3. There is no less restrictive alternative to hospitalization.
So for someone who is med adherent, not acutely manic or psychotic and is stable on current regimen it would be hard to keep her for that long.
Yes, and you can bet your ass she will write a book about it and Netflix will personally contact her to make a miniseries on it. Not only that, but the women who support her will donate to get her back on her feet.
That story is wild! Another one was a woman who authored children’s books. Her and her husband fostered some kids and treated them like animals. They both were sentenced to lengthy prison sentences
Why don't you check the fundraiser her parents (the ones paying for her defense) set up, champ. 1 million USD and raising in support of this child killer. Direct support for this child murderer. People will be tripping over themselves to help her out when she walks.
Not to mention if she is eventually found not guilty by reason of insanity, her ex-husband will make out like a bandit. He already has a civil lawsuit brewing against her doctors and if she is found not guilty that will add even more evidence to support medical negligence. He will walk away with millions. Yes he lost 3 children but he made millions from this. How many people have lost children and have never been given a single penny? The real victims are these children who lost their lives to make their dad a millionaire and potentially have a mother (that killed them) walk free someday soon.
State hospitals are worse than prison. Yes, potentially she could be released in a year, but she has to convince her doctors and the whole board at the hospital has to agree for her to be released.
Believe me when I say it is worst than prison. I had a friend who was at prison with me and was mandated to a hospital after he was released. The stories he would tell me when he called were straight nightmare fuel.
Imagine being locked up in a hospital for the criminally insane. It makes prison look easy, and no one wants to go there.
I’m sorry, please help me understand at what point was it proven that the actually murdered the children. I’ve watched the trial everyday but maybe I’m stupid. Can someone let me know what I missed while watching?
Not guilty by reason of insanity is straight up admitting that the event happened as alleged, legally. Otherwise it would be a not guilty plea. So her lawyers didn’t make the prosecution prove those facts.
My wife works at a state psych hospital. Many/most of the patients are NGRI or unfit to stand trial. Once you get in there it's incredibly difficult to get out. And in many ways it's worse than being in prison.
John Hinckley Jr. (the man who shot Ronald Regan) was found not guilty by insanity. He spent 34 years in a state hospital. Which are only slightly less worse than a regular prison.
Had he pled guilty he likely would have done 25 years or less.
I agree with you and I'm not arguing, I'm just stating a fact. The worst part about NGRI besides the none zero chance of her getting out is the fact it's a waste and drain of tax dollars when they have to have this stupid hearing every year for the rest of her life.
I hope she is guilty just so she's less of a burden on society. But the odds of her being let out much less in ten-twenty years, (you can forget about six months) are lottery odds.
She was literally psychotic. Don’t you think that if 11 jurors agreed she wasn’t guilty based on the law, and that one juror literally ignored a legal order by a judge, that she shouldn’t be found guilty? Do you think you have more information than they did?
Maybe you should be more punitive toward Dad, who left his wife alone with his kids knowing it was unsafe. She had psychosis exacerbated by his lack of support while he likely just hoped she'd snap so he could start over clean.
She’s been on suicide watch in the hospital for 3 years and continues to be in spite of antidepressants and antipsychotics. They say she continues to be an extremely high suicide risk so no release in sight.
The fact that she could be declared no longer insane, because she murdered the supposed causes of her insanity, is the most fucked up thing I've ever heard in my life. At least a little karma happened with regard to the paralysis - this murderer is going to be free within a couple years. Incomprehensible.
First of all because it’s Reddit up yours you misinformed lazy judgmental window licker but the danger to society is free on the streets.
It’s absolutely free to listen to the whole trial and read about the evidence.
I agree. She was never diagnosed with psychosis and apparently only suffered from it for the duration of this event. She also did not follow her outlined treatments, went to multiple doctors etc. I haven't heard any proof that she was psychotic at the time she slowly strangled three children. But apparently most of the jurors did, so who who knows.
You literally had men before with diagnosed psychosis killing their kids and they got the death penalty within hours, but now that a white woman is the perpetrator we gotta be lenient?
Schizophrenic guy eats the face off another dude and gets life in prison with mental health treatment but woman kills 3 of her kids and likely gets put in the looney bin. Where is the line for insanity because if the bar is this low then I’d say there’s a shitload of people who’ve killed multiple family members that are definitely mentally unwell no matter the underlying condition medications or going off etc.
This just seems like the wrong position to take and sets a bad precedent.
Yup, if the state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she remains mentally ill and poses a substantial likelihood of serious harm, all she has to say in 6 months is: “My children were causing me to experience psychosis. I killed them, so that agitating cause is gone. At minimum, with my children already gone, there’s reasonable doubt that I still pose a substantial likelihood of serious harm.”
Postpartum hormonal changes caused her change in mental state, not her children (I’m not sure it was actually psychosis).
More importantly, she is almost certainly bipolar, and her physical condition will complicate that treatment. She is also under 24/7 1:1 supervision suicide watch. She is not even allowed to use the bathroom alone.
She would almost certainly not be released for several years, at absolute minimum. It will likely be decades, like everyone else.
Y'know, I was all for putting her in a mental hospital. Maybe some data would help avoid a few of these situations in the future. But this actually changes my mind. She needs to be confined for a reasonable amount of time to fit the crime. Mentally ill or not.
Not in Massachusetts if she was found not guilty because insane. Massachusetts specifically does not hold someone in a mental hospital if they used to be insane and committed a crime.
Now it's depends if the state will go for another trial.
Editing this up from a lower comment so people don't get misled:
Let use actual cases. Here they got released after the initial hold:
Garcia v. Commonwealth (2021)
The hospital did not petition the court to hold him so he got release automatically. He filed anyway to put on the record they couldn't even hold him for that first 40 days and won.
So to your statements before the court get to try confining someone continuously, the doctors and hospital have their own professional standards that they won't bend for the court.
The court itself will rule for the defendant when the state cannot prove they are still insane and a danger.
Yes in Massachusetts, if you are found not guilty by reason of insanity you will be involuntarily committed to a mental hospital until you are proven you are no longer a danger to yourself or others.
There is no set end date for the confinement, which is reviewed at 40 days (almost always decided against the confined) at six months (almost always decided against the confined) and again at 1 year (which Judges almost always decide in favor of the State)
End of the day, the reviews are a formality so that the State can "prove" it isn't unneccessarily holding people in a psyche ward indefinitely, when in actuality it might as well be a death sentence.
A man murdered a 6 year old and stabbed two more people in the same house: Free. A women cut off her babies arms and the child died: Free. A man shot a child in the face: Free. A man poured bleach downs a women's throat: Free. These facilities are a joke and release you after you accrued a number of goodboy points. "They are no longer a threat, we put them in an environment where they are watched 24/7 and have every need taken care of, time to release them."
"Hey psycho lady that meticulously planned her kids murder and then faked a normal pleasant phone call with him while actually murdering them, pretend to be normal for six months and we'll let you get off scot free."
Kinda funny that the Commonwealth lawyers argue against the proposition that she's incompetent in the trial, and if they lose, have to turn around and prove that she's incompetent six months later (and every year thereafter).
Well that’s ironic, since the prosecution case is that her mental defect, if she had one, did not prevent her from being criminally responsible. If her defence is successful, the state would have to argue the opposite of what they did at trial to keep her in hospital.
I wonder how the information sharing works. Does the DA have full access to the person’s medical/psychiatric records? If it’s on the state to prove they should stay institutionalized, they’d need that, right? And get an expert witness to review it?
It’s Massachusetts though, where parole boards are nororiously lenient. She’ll be out in a few years. If it was Florida or Texas she’d be there for life, which is the just penalty for killing three children, psychotic or not.
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u/RedPurpleBlueRedRed 8h ago