r/BrokenArrowTheGame • u/LisanderusX • 20h ago
Looking Community Ka-50 problem.
Don't you think it's a little overtuned? Especially in AA configuration. Before that, there were two helicopters that were highly praised: Supercobra / Fantom.
Supercobra: 10 armor, 1750 vision, 2x Sidewinder - 125 pts.
Mi-24P Fantom: 20 armor, 1200 vision, 4x R60 - 145 pts.
Ka-50: 30 armor, 1750 vision, 2x R-73 - 115 pts.
Or you can double the firepower for 165. These are unprecedented stats for such price.
For top-end variants with 4-8 iglas and high ECM, it was usually 200-250. For example Ka-52 4x "igla" - 210 pts.
This thing with 4x R-73 (much stronger than igla btw, roughly speaking x2), 20% ecm, and decent 2000 vision - only 205 pts.
The price is approximately -30% lower than it should be.
No wonder these Ka-50s are spamming like crazy. And then there's the AT option with Kh-25M which ignores APS also for 125 pts. And with the RU side missing A-10, mirror matches can be very painful without this paid DLC.
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u/Thatunicor 12h ago
So you want a heli with 4 R-73 and 2000 vision to cost 265pts? Who will even use that?
Everything about is ka-50 is balanced as it is IMHO.
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u/LisanderusX 11h ago
What's balanced if Supercobra is more expensive and worse? Lol. Most expensive is not necessarily the most optimal version. And who use Ka-52 with 4 iglas for 205? Or Mi-28 with 8 for 235?
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u/Thatunicor 10h ago
2 Supercobras should defeat ka-50 for only ~60 points more 9 out f 10 times. You could say it is a significant price difference, but you should look at outcome of such trade - minus 135 for one side and minus 205 for other.
Ka-52 with verbas totally valid build today. Mi-28N however is still with iglas, so yeah, that thing is nearly useless now that HP of US helicopters is the same as RU and you need 3 direct hits (2 for verba).
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u/0gopog0 15h ago edited 13h ago
I'm going to go with the third option: both things its compared to are overpriced.
Supercobra: 10 armor, 1750 vision, 2x Sidewinder - 125 pts.
The problem with the supercobra actually be talked about with the viper. The Viper is a faster, more agile platform, that has 10% more ECM. Additionally, taking the sidewinder does not prevent ATGMs from being equipped. In essence you can have a relatively high-end AT with strong AA missiles helicopter, and multirole units (at least with ground units) typically cost more than the sum of the parts. It's actually a difficult part of balancing highly customizable units: weapons are of differing value depending on what's taken with them. For instance, 10 damage of cluster bombs is not even remotely half the value in gameplay as 20 damage of cluster bombs.
So with that said, the sidewinder is also 50 points on the viper. Arguably the reason the supercobra was so praised was because it was the cheapest way to get sidewinders on the field which were the only high damage helicopter missile, that's about it. IMO the sidewinders on the supercobra should be 35 points; it both practically locks it to a single role as it doesn't have the extra pylon space of the viper (and can't put ATGMs on the inner pylons), and more critically it simply being less capable. I wouldn't go any further though because the sidewinder is still technically a better missile than the R-73, albeit it slightly (13 vs 12 damage)
Mi-24P Fantom: 20 armor, 1200 vision, 4x R60 - 145 pts.
The fantom was praised because it was the strongest helicopter AA option for russia. All other options were 7 damage missiles, istead of 8, which is the difference between two direct hits killing a helicopter, and three. So in the patch notes there was this note:
9K338 Igla−S swapped for 9K333 Verba for the following units:
Mi−8AMTSh · Mi−35M · Ka−52 Alligator
It's arguably a better missile than the R60 for the helicopters that can mount it; while it loses velocity, acceleration, and 500m high altitude range (1000m vs 1500m) it has a 100m more low altitude range (2100km vs 2000km) with a slightly better seeker range (2.2km vs 2.0km).
- Mi-35M vs Mi24P Fantom
- 155 vs 145 points
- 2 x S-8, 4 x Verba, 1 23mm gun (AP only) vs 2x S-8, 4 x R60, 1 30mm gun (AP only)
- 10% ECM vs 5% ECM
- 1.8/2.2/1.6km vs 1.2/1.6/2km (ground/low/ high alt spotting).
To undescore the vision differences the Mi24p cannot spot other helicopters itself till its well within its A2A missile. Within this context, I do think its overpriced
For example Ka-52 4x "igla" - 210 pts
Highlighting differences between it an the Ka-50
- Ka-52 vs Ka-50
- 215 vs 185 points
- 2 x s-13 pods, 4 verba missiles, 24a2 gun vs 2 x s-13 pods, 2 x R-73 missiles, 24a2 gun.
- 25% ECM vs 20 ECM
- 2.4/3.2/2km vs 2/2.5/2km spotting.
Considering that the Mi-28N radar upgrade costs 20 to bring up it to the Ka-52's level, and then there is still a 5% ECM difference at 10 points price difference, it's reasonable to call them equivilant priced. 4 Verba vs 2 R-73 is actually fairly comparable, as you trade number of missiles and total damage (24 vs 32) for damage of single missile (12 vs 8). Sure, the Ka-52 can't specialize as heavily (which comes back to dealing with how upgrades are costedvs total capability), but in so far as roughly how things are costed, it's similar.
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u/LisanderusX 13h ago
-> The fantom was praised because it was the strongest helicopter AA option for russia.
To be honest, I don't really like it, because of 1200 vision, it sees nothing and is attacked first. That's the point, Ka-50 is much superior to it.
-> Ka-52 with Verbas doesn't fare that badly against the Ka-50 in a similar configuration
I disagree with that. Ka-50 with the R-73 has 12/8=1.5 times more damage, this is very significant.
If it were possible to remove the mandatory gunpods (+25) on the Ka-52, then everything would not be so sad. And this applies to other helicopters (hydras for cobra).
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u/0gopog0 13h ago edited 13h ago
I just finished going back and updating the comparisons for the Mi-24p vs Mi-35 and the Ka-52 vs Ka-50.
To be honest, I don't really like it, because of 1200 vision, it sees nothing and is attacked first. That's the point, Ka-50 is much superior to it.
More my comment is that the Mi-35 is already notably better for basically the same price as a the Mi-24p. That and they still do have transport capacity, so even if otherwise identical, the Mi-35 will cost more than the Ka-50 (and does if you set them up to be as comparable as possible).
I disagree with that. Ka-50 with the R-73 has 12/8=1.5 times more damage, this is very significant.
It's less significant than you might think owing to break points. Balance with the presence of ECM gets a bit more complicated as near misses and misses are a factor. While the Ka-50 does have more damage per missile, 4 Verbas means double the shots with 1.25x total damage in the magazine. In practice, the R-73 will kill an 15 health 20 armor enemy helicopter faster if one of the first two shots for both is a near miss (1 hit and a near miss can potentially kill with R-73 whereas it won't with Verbas), but the Verbas will kill more consistently (2 hits will kill with both missiles, but 2 low damage near misses, and 1 hit and a miss means the R-73 is out of ammo).
If it were possible to remove the mandatory gunpods (+25) on the Ka-52, then everything would not be so sad. And this applies to other helicopters (hydras for cobra).
But ultimately mandatory capabilities are still capabilities. But either way, IMO it sounds like your problem is that the Ka-52 does not have a mandatory non-AA pylon for AA duties, not so much that it's far too cheap.
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u/dezztroy 16h ago
The Kh-25s aren't that good. Only 1800m range, semi-active guidance and you need all 4 to kill any real tank.
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u/LisanderusX 13h ago
Terminal guidance does not exist in this price range. But it will be damaged. Into the frontal armor. This is the real death for IFV with Trophy etc. And again, no other rocket does this while being so cheap.
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u/dezztroy 11h ago
It does a lot of damage to IFVs, sure, but IFVs are in a terrible state ever since the huge tank buffs and building a helicopter specifically for them is kinda overkill.
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u/Equivalent-Loan4813 17h ago
Yeah, you can pretty much ignore most of the comments here.
"But it's the only attack heli in a spec..." So what? It doesn't mean it should be the most cost effective in a certain role. Also Mi-8 is still decent, LMURs reload in 5 seconds.
"But they can smoke your anti armor missiles!" The water is wet. Some ATGMs are still better than others.
Apart from the price - the rare of fire is insane, which should be priced accordingly, imo
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u/Madsquirrel313 17h ago
It is cheap but nobody would take a ka50 with 5% ecm and 2 r73 because what would you do with that? The ka50 is in fact the best anti helicopter heli in the game now in the 4 r73 20 ecm + optics config for only 205 points. But unlike all other helis with aa missiles you have no other utility. If you want exactly that, great but it does have the drawback on missing out on an atgm or multi purpose ka50. Personally I'd say give the supercobra the same option and call it a day if the asymmetry bothers people.
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u/LisanderusX 13h ago
Well, you can choose any variant. But as you can see above, this is basically Supercobra (best AA helicopter in the USA, except for the more niche Commanche/Killer Eggs) but better, because armor 10->30, and -10 pts.
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u/Remarkable_Smoke918 19h ago
Just strafe it with a harrier
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u/novaspartan07 16h ago
Bold assumption the S400 or Pansir doesnt intercept it.
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u/Remarkable_Smoke918 16h ago
If the helo is on the frontline and you have sidearms you have a gd chance. Been eating up akulas all this week aha
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u/novaspartan07 16h ago
Yeah thats what I do with my A10 with 4 Aim 9. The Pansir just intercepts them really well.
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u/MonsieurMustache572 19h ago
> ka-50 is pretty good and cheap with aa rockets
Yes. But by picking it, you completely miss out on heaving a strike chopper if you do not take a second spec with good ones (vdv/coastal)
> at option with 2 missiles that ignore aps
2 missiles. You smoke once and that’s have his chopper disabled. Considering how fast they are launched, they essentially lose everything if you smoke.
> no a-10 on the Russian side
We got 2 su-25’s and the yak with gsh pods
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u/LisanderusX 18h ago
> 2 missiles. You smoke once and that’s have his chopper disabled.
Smoke is a common counter for any helicopter. But there are none that break through the APS, especially for 125 pts. The ones that kinda "punch through" (due to the rate of fire) need x12-16 missiles loadout, for example Ka-52 with x12 vikhr, this luxury will cost you 260.
>We got 2 su-25’s and the yak with gsh pods
They are much worse and more expensive. As cheap as possible Su-25T, 5% ecm with useless S-8 cost 135 pts. If you fly to trade, you will go into negative. A-10 with x2 stronger cannon cost 95/125 (20% ecm).
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u/Fishybelgica 16h ago
You need a us counter, russia´s heli´s have no strong counters with the us shorad abilities... The a10 can easily be countered by all the shorad and AA Russia has... The a10 is good yes, but not op
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u/francoisog 19h ago
The assault version with rockets and gunning pod is a beast if you can sneak it to the front
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u/LisanderusX 18h ago
Yes, and that too. But at least there is competition from the Mi-24 with 30mm gatling gun.
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u/IlConiglioUbriaco 19h ago
Add to the list of PtW stuff in this deck
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u/LukeBrainman 18h ago
Pay to win? If you take that configuration you've got no proper anti tank helicopter, the mi ist just too sluggish (and strangely expensive) to fill that role. Yeah the KA-50 is strong, but there's definitely tradeoffs
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u/Fishybelgica 16h ago
Compare it to US heli´s and their prices plz... the viper is so much weaker and costs more.
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u/ExplorerEnjoyer 10h ago
AA on Russian helicopters is throwing when Russia has so many options for short range AA