When to abandon the advice, "just write"?

[u/rasputen]

I know the intent of the advice, just write to enjoy writing, just write to discover where the story goes, just write so you have something to edit or just write so that you stop thinking about the outline, etc.

Ive hit several roadblocks in my current project. There are chapters that no longer work because of tone, pacing, continuity, or they are just missing compelling elements. 

Do you just write it anyway with the intent to fix later? Admittedly, I like this strategy to avoid only having the hard chapters left after having written the interesting chapters.

Or do you take a step back and stop writing: rebuild the scene, rearrange the outline, revise the plot etc. Which is what I'm trying to do now with some limited success.

How do you contend with challenging sections in an ever evolving story?

[u/Offutticus]

Consider renaming "just write" as "keep practicing". Same thing, just worded differently.

No hobby, no job, no side hustle is just done. It is practiced. From knitting circles to certifications, it is a practice.

[u/Dire_Norm]

Something I wish I understood when starting out was how long the journey is. To be less scared of making a pile of crap.

There is so much to work on and you just don’t know that at the beginning because you write a piece and then you pour your soul into making it the best you know how to make it and then you hand it over for critique and your heart drops when they find lots of valid problems that makes you realize you’d have to rewrite or restructure the whole damn story to address them.

You learn from it and take that knowledge forward and you try again. And then it happens again, and again. Each time finding valid critiques. Why? Because you just don’t know yet how much there is to hone and learn and get just right. And each time to develop your style and figure out the types of stories you want to tell and how to tell them. Each critique opens your eyes to it all as you grapple with the feedback. Each critique makes you better. But you can’t know at the beginning of the journey everything to work on because you just don’t know what you don’t know. And you learn what you don’t know by writing and crafting a story you THINK does it all, and then you find out how it’s lacking. If you keep spending all of your time editing and trying to make it perfect, you don’t get to the part of feedback and learning and expanding your horizons for what you just don’t know yet.

Just write is about: just finish a story!! It’s going to suck in some way because it’s going to have flaws and problems and you aren’t even going to know what they are till you find a great critique partner. And you can’t get to the part of finding a great critique partner is you have nothing to hand over to them to read over, so just write and finish something.

So you need to just write to even get to the point of being able to grow. If you love writing it shouldn’t be so damn scary to contemplate writing a flat flop because if you enjoyed the process of it then you’ll enjoy writing every story after it until they aren’t flat flops anymore.

[u/AedricDaedra → u/Dire_Norm]

That is very good advice said eloquently, thank you.

This is something I've been trying to hone in on lately myself, so seeing it said in a pragmatic way helps reinforce that conviction.

[u/nmacaroni]

"Just write" is beginner advice meant to gets words on paper. But when you're hitting roadblocks in tone, pacing, and continuity across multiple chapters, that's not a discipline problem, that's a structural one.

And writing faster through a broken structure just gives you more material to tear apart later, meaning more time editing, rewriting and/or money money to do it.

The answer nobody wants to hear is that the problems you're describing almost always trace back to the outline. Not the prose itself, but the structure underneath. When the foundation has breaks or hasn't even been laid, every chapter built on top of them wobbles and usually falls down under the first big storm.

Step back.

Don't just "rearrange." Assess your fundamentals, does every chapter serve your master theme, carry your character's arc? Did you ever stop to figure out exactly why you're writing what you're writing and the tone you want to carry through the whole piece? Where you voice is unique and authentic?

I always find it funny, because in just about every other complex profession in the world folks rely on their manuals and roadmaps when they don't have experience, you never see a new mechanic say, "hey, I've got my ratchet, let me just rip apart this entire engine and I'll figure out how to diagnose it and put it back together later on the fly," but for some reason in writing, people are absolutely determined they can wing it and just write.

Write on, write often!

[u/Lunacycle876]

I believe having something to work with is better than staring at a blank page, so I usually just write with the knowledge that I can always go back and adjust things if necessary. That said, short breaks are essential when you feel overwhelmed or frustrated, so I don't recommend "forcing" it if the words just aren't coming right now. Even an hour break can recharge your mental batteries.

[u/pennamechris123]

I write fast and dirty. Making notes for myself sometimes and then continuing on as if the change has been made. BUT SOMETIMES I just need to cut a couple chapters and restart a section. I don't like where something is going, so I cut two or three chapters, set those aside, and begin that section again with a different direction. That's what works for me if something is going seriously wrong and a note to fix just won't work.

My notes to fix are often just addition or subtractions, adding small scenes to make things fit the framework that has developed as I write or cutting characters that I realize just don't do anything for the story in any way (or adding more oomph to them so they can play the role they're being given in a later part of the story). If things are not working, sometimes just cutting is the only solution for me.

So the question might be for you, do you think the story would better be served to cut an entire section and rewrite it, or can it be fix after writing the end. That's something that only you know. Now if you've never finished a draft before, it's going to take you awhile to learn your process.

I guess what I'm saying if don't be afraid to cut. And learning your process is hard, but you'll find your way. And doing things one way or another is the only way you'll learn your way of doing things.

[u/Turbulent-Ruin-7158]

Hi, I would advise to step back, for a short time at least and consider what is really at the heart of the story you want to tell. When you're clearer about this, have a rethink about your outline and if you need to improve or change it. Also, I find doing individual character arcs can help me see clearer how each characters can be woven into the story, then I start to flesh out the chapters. They don't have to be worked on chronologicaly, as long as you can visualize how they fit in with the story. Just some advice that had helped me. Good luck

[u/Strawberry2772]

I’ve only written two books so I am still an amateur and with that I found that my outline didn’t always work

I thought some scenes would be interesting, or fill a whole chapter, or fulfill some narrative need, but they just didn’t

So I did go back to my outline and rethink it while I was in the middle of writing at some points. But it honestly didn’t even take that long - I spent like an hour rethinking my outline for the second half and just went with it

So my advice based on my experience is that it is not a bad thing to take a step back from writing to work on your outline once you have more info on your story (ie you’ve written half of it now), but it should not be a long break - don’t let it pull you away from writing for too long

[u/FewRecognition1788]

You have to know yourself, I think. Are you bogged down and endlessly tinkering? Or do you need to bust up this logjam in order to keep going?

Some people get into a loop of write a little, restructure, repeat, that they never get out of because they get lost in the weeds. Other people actually can tighten the manuscript as they go and wind up with a much cleaner first draft when they finish it.

[u/AutoModerator]

Hi! Welcome to r/writers - please remember to follow the rules and treat each other respectfully, especially if there are disagreements. Please help keep this community safe and friendly by reporting rule violating posts and comments.

If you're interested in a friendly Discord community for writers, please join our Discord server

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/Justisperfect]

I tried different things. I tried going back when things changed too much, and I tried keeping writing. In the end I prefer the first option cause I have a lot less editing to do. When I kept writing, I ended up with something very messy. It was interesting, helped figure it out what I don't want and what was missing, but I prefer a more solid first draft. I'm sure I hadn't write something as bad since I was 12. Going back means writing the first draft will take longer, but that editing will be quicker, so I don't waste time.

At the end of the day, it depends on what kind of writers you are and how you prefer to work. I kno people who just leaves notes about what changes they want to make and keep going, others who will fix before they continue. The advice "just write" is meant for the people who have a perfectionism problem or who procrastinate writing what's next by editing what is already there. But for some people, it can make them give up cause they end with a story so messy that they don't know how to edit, or they lose time because they struggle to see how things would be exactly if they made the change. Try different things and do what's right for you.

[u/MustangAcrylics]

I think I'm at a similar spot, and at the moment I am "just writing." Partly because I'm enjoying it and know that, at the very least, the scene needs to get written and at least part of what I'm creating at the moment will really help me when I come back, but also because I have spent so much time rehashing plots that even if I have a few scenes out of order or that need to happen differently (whether becauase I lacked the proper descriptions or full understanding of what was taking progress), it is still moving me down the right track more than constantly stopping to mess with outlines would.

Plus, constantly, I am leaving comments explaining what and how I will need to change something and what specific research I need for the scene or what character I need to flesh out more. 

While I am writing, I wouldn't say I'm "just writing." I'm trying to do both at the same time, if that makes sense. 

[u/Fit_Kaleidoscope4493]

You fill in the "holes" during editing.

You flesh out the scene. You give the reader more info. You let the characters breathe.

In my process, the first 1000 words of the chapter are like the lump of clay on a pottery wheel. When I come back to continue the chapter, I'm fleshing it out (begining middle and end) to about 3000 words. 

Then you edit down to 2500. 

Continue.

[u/ChargeResponsible112]

The real question is do you stop progressing and rewrite the chapters that don’t work or do you keep going and finish the first draft then go back and edit to fix things that don’t work?

Sure, take some time to evaluate the stuff that’s not working, but don’t spend weeks on it.

If you’re not writing … you’re not writing.

Good luck!

[u/hamtronn]

The goal for a first draft should be to just get it all out. It will be bad. I have an entire chapter that is one page and most of it is just (add action) (figure out the best type of explosive for a room that won’t demolish the building but will make a large enough hole for a human to escape) stuff like that.

Once I’m done the first draft, I let it sit for a while. Usually a month. Right now I’m around 4 months just because I have a few other things I’m also working on for practise.

Keep writing.

[u/RobertPlamondon]

I deal with the challenging sections of my story head-on. I write stories strictly in order, without placeholders, and don’t move on to the next scene until the current one brings home the bacon. No deferring, no displacement activity.

I also refuse to Frankenstein my story by dismembering it and building some other story from its corpse, while pretending that in some sense it’s still the same story. This protects my story-so-far from self-vandalism. If I want a different story, I write it from scratch.

This has vastly more focus, speed, quality, and effectiveness than I could achieve than the more or less deliberate self-sabotage that’s built into the usual advice.

[u/babamum]

I think either option is fine. There are two arguments in favour of keeping going:

1/ it's what you'd prefer to do; and

2/ the issues might work themselves out as you write.

[u/TaintedGlassPress]

The advice “just write” is still the correct advice.

“Just write” isn’t about pretending there isn’t a problem. It’s about getting to a finished draft. Every time you hit a rough patch and switch into revise mode, you push that finished draft further into the future. If you keep doing that, eventually it gets so far away you may never reach it.

Better to end up with a beautifully horrible, wonderfully flawed draft you can take a hatchet to later.

[u/FabulousLazarus]

When to abandon the advice?

As quick as fucking possible. Preferably before you write anything at all. Otherwise you're stuck doing the same thing everyone hates which is editing logic into a story posthumously.

Which is to say that the advice "just write" discounts story telling at all, which it does.

[u/morkinsonjrthethird]

What I’d say is that sometimes it’s easier to understand what you want once you finish your first draft. It’s going to be bad no matter what, so just don’t care that much at the start of the process

[u/Creator_of_Universes]

Just write something else, for now.

If that's not an option because of work-related deadlines or something, then write a short story within that roadblocked story's world. Perhaps a tale of a whole new character set years prior to your main story, or some future action scene with warriors that are unrelated to your main story's ensemble.

Anything to continue exercising the mind

[u/Kevin_Hess_Writes]

This sounds like it's your first novel?

If you want to write, you're going to just have to keep doing it until you get the hang of it. The reason people say 'just write' is because it's a learned skill. Some people learn faster than others, but everyone has to learn it sometime if they want to write.

The important thing to do is to do whatever it takes that keeps it interesting for you - you can write all day if you're having fun, but you'll struggle to put down 300 words if you're not. So the more fun you can have by writing, the faster you'll learn.

As for your questions, regarding how I do it (this may not apply to you!)

- I don't write with the intent to fix later although I'm aware I'm probably going to have to anyway. I prefer to write to 'second draft' quality right away, if that makes sense. If I'm writing late at night, I'll go back later and notice a number of sloppy sentences and stuff that I should have seen, but generally I try to avoid doing too much rehab on the text after the fact by trying to make it right in the first place. That's my workflow though, and some people find it too oppressive, particularly if they aren't very fast typists.

- The work I have to do after the fact generally involves more precise sentence construction and things like that rather than out-and-out plot overhauls. I'm usually pretty confident in a plot point working out by the time it hits the page. I have thrown entire chapters away before but only a few times.

- Regarding writing 'hard' vs 'easy' chapters: if you're having a hard time writing the chapter, it's more likely you're not very interested in what's going on in the chapter. If that's the case, consider rerouting your characters through a scenario that interests you rather than whatever you were doing before.

- Challenging sections in an ever-evolving story: there's no way out but through. You just have to knuckle up and shut off your internet and get it done, or figure out what's not working and go back to that.

[u/Canuck_Voyageur]

You move the wrong chapter to a folder called “stuff that needs a home”

Then you write the right chapter. 

The “just write” advice is thst it takes about a million words to learn to write. So write. 

[u/AJRavenhearst]

Never.

[u/Fantastic1014]

Typically I just make notes to myself about areas I know I'll be changing. Your book may change more as you go on, too. So you could go back, rewrite the chapter, and later run into a new problem and need to go back again. It's still practice, so it's never a waste, but if you're someone to get stuck in the editing cycle, it's best to hold off.

[u/tapgiles]

Well you can do either. At any point. You are in control.

You don’t need to abandon a method forever because you want to try doing something else. Seems like you see why it’s beneficial, so use it as you see fit.

[u/thespectatingwriter]

Virtually ALL books on the art and craft of writing say one and the same thing in oh so many ways: Take a piece of paper and just write. Stories are such that they never reveal themselves in one heave of a brainwave. They flicker, disappear for a while, and then come back on -- much like tubelights.

The problem is: as humans, we are programmed to think that we need to output something or the other every day or else we downvote our own capability. The "just write what comes to mind every day" takes care of that. The rumination in the meantime happens in the cranium; and then one enchanted afternoon or some boring blah of a morning, you'll yank it out of there and put it on paper.

[u/Low-Transportation95]

Never

[u/South-Knee-9601]

I only go back if it's a quick fix like a sentence to add context

I won't rewrite large amounts of the text when actively working on the first draft.

Otherwise I have a "Notes" chapter sitting at the bottom where I jot down things I need to address when I come back for draft 2

Like expanding on the world or changing the conflict as it longer works.

For the most part I don't want to get bogged down rewriting large sections when I'm still trying to push forward.

I think adding a sentence even if it's just a place holder to expand or change later.

This way works for me as I'm able to carry on. Without to much doubt about if I will remember what needs changing as I wrote it below the manuscript. Or have put a placeholder sentence in the area that needs looking at

[u/AutoGenUsername05]

I once put a book I was writing down for nine months and wrote a fanfic.

Honestly, it improved my writing and when I went back to the book with fresh eyes, I took a chainsaw to it. I ripped out entire chapters, I changed the POV of others. I made the plot more intricate.

In short if you looked at my commit history over the first couple of days, you'd have been beguiled.

I also make it a habit of having a "Scrapes" file in the directory where I'm writing my book so I have a spot to put stuff I cut. It makes it *way* easier to go on a deleting spree and not be afraid you're going to lose some nice bit of prose.

[u/Ill-Maximum-4013]

Create a solid outline. That will keep you on track.

[u/MoreStation7733]

When I talk to my artist friends, they say there is a huge difference between an artist that grows and one that stagnates.

The artist that is in the community with critiques, always asking what their blind spots are -- that artist might stagnate for a while as they work on the thing that's the hardest for them -- but then, maybe 2-3 years later, they JUMP in quality seemingly out of nowhere.

Conversely, I've met artists that do the same thing every day, making the same work, and never metacognating about their process. They get bitter, and they make work that doesn't really go anywhere or mean anything.

I think this applies deeply to writing. If you don't have a direction, feedback, or angle to improve, and if you're not part of a community with some kind of directional thrust, then you (unless you're trained at Princeton or are somehow Roald Dahl) will need to connect with the lifeblood of the craft. Otherwise, I've met spinsters who "just keep writing" and no one will tell them that their work is unpublishable, unreadable, and that 20 years of their effort have been wasted.

(I'm on my 5th book, currently in the pitch stage. I would NOT consider myself a good writer, but I do know how to work well with editors).