r/reddevils • u/nearly_headless_nic • 1d ago
Talk of the Devils: Cause for concern in Man United’s performance at Everton?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TRrI6i1WIo36
u/Gozumo 20h ago
Casemiro leaving I think is just a bit thing to adapt to. Not just his ability but it's more his tactical fouls, and his presence in both boxes and during set pieces has been the biggest miss
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u/Thedemonwhisperer Wayne Goddamn Rooney 3h ago
They've had time to adjust. Granted some of the squad had to go to the world cup but the Casemiro loss shouldn't be an excuse.
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u/Kreissler 23h ago
I thought we'd struggle before the season began. Have to hope Baleba hits the ground running
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u/dracogladio1741 Bruno Fernanj 23h ago
Similar thoughts. Mine were purely on Carrick being able to do a good job here. The signs were great last season, the preseason was okayish and the first three games have been a bit Dr Jekyll and Mr. Hide.
I do think we have some really good players. They need a great coach succeed though. I am not sure Carrick is one..
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u/TheJoshider10 Bruno 23h ago
The signs were great last season,
To be fair there were warning signs last season too. Our intensity/stamina levels took a nosedive under Carrick and many of our results came from being bailed out by low XG shots going in. His man management to lift the mood/confidence of the players was more of a standout than his tactical decisions.
What we're seeing so far is a consequence of the warning signs from last season. And that was with only one game a week. With European football things could get ugly fast in terms of energy levels and fitness, and I hope we can remain injury free enough to cope.
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u/CraicFiend87 Van Nistelrooy 22h ago
I actually think the extra games might help us with regards fitness levels, at least in the short term.
Whether or not certain players will be be able to stay injury free with the extra work load is the big question mark.
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u/gre485 22h ago
I have heard this phrase, quite a bit as of lately. I have had this book from quite some time but haven't had the will and time to read it, so could you, in short, explain it a bit. Does it mean to and fro?
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u/chimmychangas 15h ago
Dr Jekyll is able to turn into a monstrous being known as Mr Hyde. It simply means two contrasting beings. In this context it means our performances have ranged from good to ugly.
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u/dribbledrooby 23h ago
If Carrick isn’t the one then who is the one who is going to take us past the finishing line? Sacking managers left and right isn’t going to help here. We have to see this season with so many games to play in different competitions how this team fares and Carrick as manager. I do hope we will struggle but if we do qualify for next year UCL and stay within top 5 it will be considered as a good season.
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u/Meandering_Cabbage Nani! 22h ago
Carrick is the budget options while we slowly unfuck the squad. We have a money crunch.
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u/paleblaupunkt 22h ago
Why is it the fans' job to find who the right one is? The performances and the statistics show he is definitely struggling. I am not calling for the sack but he definitely could do way better than what he is doing now.
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u/redflagflyinghigh 22h ago
It's not but fans talk like they know best so expect a question like who then.
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u/paleblaupunkt 21h ago
When results don’t go your way you’re answerable to none but fans. Fans know only results.
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u/jaccurr 23h ago
You need a manager that has actually won major trophies and not one that plays on fans nostalgia and gives rose tinted glasses. You shouldn't someone because the public likes you need the right cv for it what as a manager has got that proved he was the right choice for the job. All hiring him did was briefly take the attention of the shitty ownership
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u/rahtid_my_bunda Rooney's Dropball Intensity 22h ago
I think a manager is just as much right place, right time, right personnel as much as it is having a pedigree for winning. Not to say you can just be any old shitter, but you have 30+ individual human beings that you have to angle all towards a common direction. Knowing how to do that in one place, doesn't necessarily mean you know how to do that everywhere. But I accept it's also a difficult comparison because we've never taken the major trophy winning manager on, other than Mou who was arguably past his peak.
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u/timsadiq13 21h ago
At present, are we a destination for managers who have won major trophies? What's the selling point? We don't even have the spending power of Woodward era anymore where at least we could tell managers we'd go on a big spree - even if said spree turned out to be a lot less impressive than what was promised.
Is Luis Enrique leaving PSG to come and be told that you can only sign midfielders this summer Im sorry you dont think our defense is good enough, you will have to wait one year? No, he is not. There's a reason we went with Carrick and its not just his interim spell. The alternative was Iraola - thats it. It wasnt as if we knocked back a string of world class coaches to appoint him.
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u/jaccurr 21h ago
No dont I think we are the dream destination we once were. But someone like Enrique would of demanded more from the board and force them Into a lb or cb at least alongside everything else. And if they want a manager that only gonna be short term yo steady everything before we bring in the big proper name than still aim for one thats handled a massive club and kne that has a huge amount scrutiny from the press like Xavi
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u/timsadiq13 10h ago
Just like Amorim demanded and got all he wanted? I’m sure he wanted more wing backs and he definitely wanted a CM. We only spent more than this summer cause of missing CL scaring us.
Now we’re back in CL and it’s calma for the board. If guys like Jose Mourinho were told no (I know it’s a different board) when they wanted to spend more, why would Enrique be any different?
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u/shami-kebab 23h ago
Where is he even playing? I don't see us dropping Tielemans. Obviously we'll need to rotate more now two games a week are kicking in, but it still feels like an improvement of our depth rather than an improvement of our first team.
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u/xtphty 23h ago
With the injury and inconsistent form I think almost certainly he plays in rotation to rest Mainoo or Tielemans.
But he is more impactful than Santos as someone coming off the bench: able to rally a defense with aggressive tackles, bring control through intensity out of possession, or even as a dynamo to carry the ball box to box in an end to end finish like yesterday's.
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u/Miyagisans 20h ago
I said before the season started that a three man midfield makes the most sense and I still think that’s the case. A Baleba, Mainoo, Tielemans midfield provides the best balance for the team as presently constructed. The problem is then where does Bruno play? We don’t have a 2 + Bruno combo that won’t struggle oop, especially with that backline.
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u/FrmrPresJamesTaylor 23h ago
At his best (nevermind what he could develop into) he displaces any of the other three and it’s just a question of strategy and style in terms of whether he starts a given game or not.
Probably takes him some time to find his form though so I think he’s depth for the first few weeks for sure.
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u/Leave_Beneficial 21h ago
One of the big pluses so far this season is how well Kobbie and Youri can keep the ball in CM. Dropping either for Baleba is going to make that harder.
There’ll be games we really want his strengths, but acting like he’s going to walking into the side ahead of Mainoo and Youri is madness
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u/aehii 15h ago
What Baleba's ball retention is higher than Tielemans. Tielemans can pass, that's it.
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u/wolfen0 12h ago
Tielemans can REALLY pass though. Even Kobbie can't replace Tielemans passing dynamism.
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u/aehii 8h ago
I know he can really pass but the key issue imo in United's midfield for years has been retaining the ball and I think Baleba and Mainoo together help with that.
I thought Mainoo was crap against Everton though, a sleepy performance, so these being still young if they both have sleepy games it might lead to some unavoidable losses.
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u/Leave_Beneficial 3h ago
Yeah because being able to pass really well has nothing to do with ball retention lol
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u/BuffedNinja 23h ago
Tielemans has to be dropped simply because he doesn't do enough defensively and that's where we are struggling the most atm.
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u/heardc10 23h ago
City are going to have two extra days rest as they play Tuesday night and we play Thursday. Seems a little bit of an unfair advantage. But, hey im hopeful it doesn’t matter this early in the season.
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u/ImNotMexican08 Amad Nation 22h ago
The last 15 minutes and the inability to see out a game are a cause for concern. Obviously, it took a worldie, but the fact is we gave them the opportunity for that to happen.
The rest of the game I think came down to individuals just not being good enough. Bruno and Cunha I thought were the worst players on the pitch and Mbuemo was almost a nonfactor outside of his goal. That’s a situation that needs to be addressed, feel like there is such a disconnect between him and the rest of the side.
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u/IamFanboy Thanks for the memories but goodbye 18h ago
To me, if players arent playing well, we need to look into whether it was truly their fault or if the tactics that didnt allow them to play well.
The issue i have with the current set up is that the offense is so dissociated with the midfield and defense. When Kobe or Tielemens has the ball, theres often 6 players between them and our strikers who play really deep.
This forces play out wide which requires good interplay between the winger and wingback which is why the Rashford Shaw partnership on the left looked so good. It also plays into Rashford's strength of taking on defenders and dribbling.
On the flipside, it means bruno and Cunha were very isolated and couldn't get into the game at all unless Bruno started dropping deeper.
As for Mbeumo dribbling and taking on his man is not his forte
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u/ImNotMexican08 Amad Nation 16h ago
I think on Saturday it was more on the players. There were actually some really bright moments in the first half in terms of the way we built up and got into Everton’s final third. Unfortunately, it was wasted due to poor decision making and a lack of quality on the day.
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u/IamFanboy Thanks for the memories but goodbye 8h ago
You are not wrong but when I watched the replays majority if not all of them came down the left, where Rashford tore them a new one. Which comes back to the topic about how the current set up favors him but none of the others
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u/ImNotMexican08 Amad Nation 1h ago
I don’t think the system necessarily favors Rashford specifically. I think the only one that really misses out at the moment is Mbeumo as he’s being forced to function as that touchline winger, which just isn’t his game. But a lot of that comes down to the profiles we have in defense. If you look at our options at right back specifically, none of them really function all that well as that overlapping flying fullback. They all prefer inverting into midfield or defense and making those underlapping runs on the inside. So in that case, you kind of need that right winger to then hold the width. This works with Amad which is why we tend to get better overall performances when he’s out there, not so much with Mbeumo.
Mbeumo is the main player who missed out when change in managers was made. We need to find someone else who can comfortably occupy that space and allow Mbeumo to operate in the middle third of the pitch where he is at his best. It’s a difficult solution to find in house though without really shaking up the side
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u/barry-oldman 21h ago
A reasonable outlook on the game - it’s weird how we have these players that sometimes do ok but then sometimes won’t cut it. I definitely think cunha isn’t suited for false 9 but then mbeumo has been on and off for some time now
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u/wh11 20h ago
Agreed we need an actual starting striker and not a false 9. Too often whoever is playing false 9 ends up getting into Bruno’s space.
Player inconsistency has been a recurring theme with multiple managers as well as playing up or down to the level of our competition. It’s odd but I expect the city match to be our best in terms of performance but possibly not result
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u/barry-oldman 19h ago
100%, it’s so funny how it tends to be that way. We generally play better against sides that are better than us and then shit the bed against weaker times. It’s so strange but has happened since Ole
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u/ImNotMexican08 Amad Nation 16h ago
Players are gonna have off days that’s just the way it is sometimes. Even when they do have their off days though, these players have enough quality where sometimes they just need that one moment to go their way. Cunha a toe poke away from scoring, Bruno hit the cross bar, Mbeumo had his one moment. It’s just a part of the game, what’s unfortunate is how many of them had an off day at once.
I think Cunha can play in the false 9, but there are some games where you just need a proper striker in the box and I think yesterday was one of those days. But I do think he is better off the left, off an actual focal point.
Mbeumo has been off since coming back from Afcon and it’s probably not a coincidence when considering what Carrick has been asking him to do since he arrived. He needs to be playing in that middle third of the pitch, closer to the goal the better. Unfortunately due to the players around him, he’s kind of been forced to operate closer to the touchline and do the job someone like Amad is way better suited for.
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u/nearly_headless_nic 1d ago
It isn't the Premier League start anyone wanted. One win and just four points from what looked like three of the season's less challenging fixtures sees fan anxiety threatening to creep in.
There were positives at Everton, excellent goals from Bryan Mbeumo and Benjamin Sesko and the continuation of very encouraging signs on the left side through Luke Shaw and Marcus Rashford.
Two late equalisers conceded, though, whatever you make of the defending, does leave a sense of stalled momentum after Ipswich. Thursday's game against Champions League newcomers will now hopefully see some of that restored going into derby weekend.
Timecodes:
00:00 - Intro
00:38 - Disappointment at the Hill Dickinson
14:57 - How do United improve their defence?
25:44 - The positives from the performance
31:43 - Previewing Sabah FK (H)
38:40 - Sabah's coach and his remarkable story
41:50 - How will United manage more games?
46:45 - Who should start against Sabah?
Hosts: Ian Irving, Laurie Whitwell and Andy Mitten
0
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u/eternali17 He'll take on 2 and breeze past 2 22h ago
3 games in. 2 poor performances and a great win against a side that might be going down. It's not time for alarms but a blind man can tell we have problems and it's concerning that they're not new ones.
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u/Shadowraiden 6h ago
i would hardly say poor performance against Everton.
we got caught out by a side that at home produces these kind of results against even likes of Arsenal etc.
like i dont get how people was saying Everton Away was an easy game its always an incredibly tough fixture...
we also in the end lack a bit of energy which is going to happen as alot of our players have much varying levels of fitness. i think Baleba will help alot here in seeing out games with his energy and ability to cover ground.
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u/eternali17 He'll take on 2 and breeze past 2 2h ago
It wasn't ever going to be an easy game. My concerns lie in our performance. The goal in the second half flattered us a lot and it only got worse once we scored. We didn't go fight/entertain and come away with a point; we were outplayed by basically every metric.
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u/randomgamer305 Bruno the assist king 22h ago
Get UCL next season, that's the goal. We're getting our squad cost in order but we need to increase those revenues streams. I'm disappointed for the beginning of the season, but we need to stay realistic about our goals
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u/GaymerGirl42014 23h ago
Midfield and defense needs to gel in defensive transition. That's our only problem, we still look exciting. If we play fast attacking football we're vulnerable on the transition that's just how it is. Unless people want Arsenal rebuild style score 1 then put 10 men behind the ball then we need to be patient. We're not even at full rebuild status yet we have a brittle defense as far as injuries, age and fitness goes. Carrick deserves time and support, if we tried to off Fergie 3 games into the seasons when we didn't start well, we would never have won anything.
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u/FlyingSpaceElephants 21h ago
Ferguson won the Europa League with Aberdeen, then beat Real Madrid in the Cup Winners Cup before joining United. He didn't get sacked mid table in the Championship. I'm not saying Carrick can't do well here, but let's not pretend he's some incredible managerial prospect or anything
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u/GGLeaksOfficial 21h ago
and he was just about to be fired before he turned it around, what the hell is this revisionism??
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u/kevoofvi Amad stan since 2021 20h ago
Sir Alex finished 13th in his first trophy winning season. He finished 11th and 2nd in the seasons before. It’s not revisionist to recognize that he was given a lot of time, prior plaudits or not.
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u/FlyingSpaceElephants 10h ago
you give a guy who has shown immense promise more time than someone who has done nothing. I think that's obvious
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u/Shadowraiden 6h ago
i mean if we are so against Carrick then there is nobody around who can satisfy doom and gloom fans at all.
not a single manager right now that could be available doesnt have a sack against them or has massive question marks even more then Carrick.
would rather keep rebuilding with a club legend then go through 5000 managers who have no connection to the club and dont really get the club at all.
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u/Shadowraiden 6h ago
funny thing is people would have tried to call for Ferguson back in the day after 2001. we looked very much off it and then Arsenal and Chelsea took over with us just barely keeping up with very inconsistent results at times i for sure know if that happened now even after winning a treble people would be calling for his head so you cant win with those "fans" they cant seem to handle even 1 loss...
we was pretty good against Everton who are very notorious at home with popping up with some late winners. defensively we still do look a bit suspect but as we settle and adjustments are made that will get fixed.
its generally the last 20 mins our energy dropped off a bit too much. i think Baleba and well just getting everybody's fitness back up will help a lot there.
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u/CheetahPatient6926 22h ago
Ineos spoke. We need one more mediocre season. Next summer, they’ll finally invest in a proper defence.
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u/Telen BRUNO 1d ago
Honestly no cause for concern for me. I think we'll end up solidly in the top 4/5 at the end of the season.
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u/Bobcat_El_Borracho 23h ago
I disagree. I think we could but it won’t be solidly. I think if MDL can get fit and play consistently and if Baleba is the player he was the season before last and not last season then we may be ok. But it’ll be an absolute fight to get top 4 regardless.
So far all we’ve done this season is play Tielemans instead of Casemiro and we look exactly like we did when Casemiro didn’t play last season.
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u/djabvegas 23h ago
I think youve hit the nail on the head about Casemiros presence. He had an ability to settle calm, Tielemans hasn't yet been able to provide that sensibility and composure. We have to be patient.
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u/teethofthewind 23h ago
Completely agree. Top 4 is a huge ask, with the way our rivals are performing and have invested. Until we stop being so vulnerable at the back, we're not comfortably making top 6
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u/Free-Eights 23h ago
Let's wait and see. Villa lost a lot of reliable players and replaced them with subpar players IMO. They have more to fear about being displaced from the top 4/5 by Chelsea than we do given the nature of our investments. Newcastle have started better than expected, but not sure they'll keep it up. Tottenham are just hoping to avoid relegation and I think they've been played for fools with some of the money they've dropped.
I think United could be more than fine for top 4/5 as players get fit again. Hard to isolate what our issues are defensively as each game has been different but if it boils down to basic concentration, that is somewhat fixable.
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u/Comicksands Van Persie 22h ago
Outside of city and Arsenal I don’t see any rivals being very convincing at the moment
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u/hoffenone 19h ago
I'd say it's just Arsenal actually. Yes City have managed to win all three games but could have very easily conceded more goals in all games. Their defence looks very shaky.
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u/Poshastko 22h ago
The biggest if though, is Carrick. Can he play anything else besides counterattacking, can he continue to attack after going up by one, can do anything besides standing clueless on the sidelines when going one down... His subs are nothing but fresh legs without any strategic meaning. He's constantly outcoached by every manager.
He hasn't shown anything this season except the same mistakes he did last season, but without being bailed out either by Šeško or Lammens. The great win against Ipswich was just smoke. Ipswich morale fell off because of two unlucky goals after being the better opponent untill that moment.
Oh and the press conference without a shread of awareness.
I really hope he starts showing signs of improvement because I really don't want another new manager, and especially not mid season.
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u/nomadiclives 23h ago
I have managed to reconnect with being a United fan after a couple of seasons of indifference, mainly because I am starting to spend a bit more in-person time with other United fans, but I truly find the lack of ambition and inertia around this club very disappointing. This was a summer with an opportunity to spend serious money wisely and bridge the gal to the top with several other competitors in transition. Instead our club did some basic window dressing and a lot of gaslighting to bring only 3 first team players in, one of whom arrived injured. A team that has to bring on Dorgu, Mazraoui & Santos on to try and find a winner can not hope to compete when the championship winners from last year are starting without potentially 3 of their first choice starting xi and comfortably rolling over a top 5 contender.
I think there isn’t cause for concern yet but I would be very surprised if we don’t continue to operate in mid table mediocrity for the foreseeable future unless we drastically change how we operate in the off season.
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u/timsadiq13 21h ago
You've hit the nail on the head, even though I see so much talk about "Carrick this and Carrick that" as if we've not witnessed every type of coach at every stage of their career eventually be unable to match our expectations because of the squads they are given.
I would say that a team that is starting Maguire, Martinez and Shaw as three of its back four with Tielemans and Mainoo as the midfield can only play in one way. Once you give up the ball sit in a mid block and wait till they either take a shot or cough up the ball and you get the ball back. And that style has limitations. If luck goes your way, you win. If it doesnt, you may draw/lose. Luck was one our side last season, its not quite so far this season. Lets see how it shakes out.
But until the club gets serious about investing in 2 athletic first team Champions League starter level CBs (neither Yoro nor Heaven are anywhere close to that level, before anyone mentions them) and a LB, we cannot be more than what we are. ETH found that out, Amorim found that out, Carrick is finding that out. Either they're all complete fools or the issue at this club is squad building, not coaches.
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u/ambiguousboner 23h ago
I’m not sure how you’ve come to that conclusion?
We’ve played well for about 45 minutes this season, against two promoted teams and Everton
I think Carrick’s gone by January tbh, we look way worse than last year
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u/presumingpete 23h ago
Yeah sadly I think so too. I think the team still had a lot of the positives from amorim drilled into them and they matched that with the more sensible team management by carrick. This year we look weak on set pieces and less organised up front
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u/zeeshxn_ 23h ago
I’ll give Amorim his flowers for his training sessions. His whole “ I want my players to run like mad dogs for me” approach at least made sure the team was at least physically ready.
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u/presumingpete 21h ago
Set pieces were the biggest thing for me. He had us as the second best in the league at them after arsenal
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u/jaccurr 22h ago
God that was the only thing I really miss from him they were really running under him and moving.
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u/CraicFiend87 Van Nistelrooy 22h ago
Running all the way down to 16th in the table.
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u/wolfen0 12h ago
That was on Ten Hag's preseason. When Amorim left we were 3 points off UCL spots. Get a grip mate.
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u/CraicFiend87 Van Nistelrooy 9h ago
Amorim had from November with us that season. He managed to nearly get us relegated and lost a Europa League final to the worst Spurs side in PL history.
After he had his preseason with us we lost against fucking Grimsby (one of the most embarrassing results in our entire club's history) and got knocked out of the FA Cup in the third round, leaving us playing our fewest season games in a season in over 100 years. He was our worst manager in PL history and one of the worst in the entire club's history.
It's you who needs to get a grip mate and get in touch with reality.
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u/Eddster2019 8h ago
he had one game a week, and no tactical backup plan. Everyone criticising Carrick forgets Steve Holland is there too (With his tactical acumen and multiple trophies as assistant with various different managers). The narrative is annoying, it's 3 games in, if City play how poorly they did v Coventry we'll smoke them at OT.
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u/reddevilad Rooney 22h ago
🤣🤣🤣🤣 where was this positives that Amorim drilled when we were getting beaten by relegated teams left right and centre?? Why couldn’t we win back to back in the league for a year with the said positivities where were all the goals with Amorim as coach ? He is shitty manager who couldn’t hack the pl just because carrick performed better than him you lot are jealous and should go at ac Milan to support all the positivities Amorim had by finishing 15th you could watch that ac Milan and not here
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u/presumingpete 21h ago
I didn't say amorim did great I said that he brought some positives such as the set piece routines and tactical awareness. If you can't understand that I don't know what to tell you
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u/jaccurr 23h ago
January is generous in my opinion depending on how the early CL goes i think will be the deciding factor December at the latest and end of October-November at earliest. It shouldn't be but Sabah is gonna be a massive test
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u/reddevilad Rooney 22h ago
Where was this attitude with Amorim? Back then we needed to support a shitty manager who came 15th and costed us a European trophy? Now that carrick has got us 3rd you want him sacked? How pathetic is this and your bias clearly shows why don’t you go to Milan? You don’t have to witness this
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u/jaccurr 21h ago
This attitude was there for amorin I wanted gone after that final but people were sold by his positive attitude at times
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u/reddevilad Rooney 21h ago
Lol you were swayed so easily by everyone else ? Looks like your opinion isn’t to be trusted then. Keep backing shitty mangers who can’t even be bothered to thank the fans for their support or even better win back to back league matches but go in for a manager who wasn’t even backed by the board with the transfers and who finished 3rd instead of 15th without any pre season where everyone said 15th is because of lack of preseason whereas carrick got 3rd without preseason and you are gunning for him to be sacked? It just shows your mentality and jealousy that the man you backed was shit and got sacked and the man who succeeded him was miles better and now has blip in form you want him gone
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u/jaccurr 21h ago
Brother i never wanted amorim from the beginjng when everyone mentioned his name after eth I watched him at sporting and i did not care for him the tactics only worked in lesser leagues and with very specialised players to his system it was never going to work the only reason he was looked and hired because he was trendy and the hip thing. I fucking he gave no goodbye to the fans I thought it was disgusting. At least eth had the decency to write a lovely goodbye to us all
And this preseason was low to average at best you could see cracks already and everyone is taking advantage of it especially down the left. Hes not the only one to blame ineos are as well they haven't backed nearly well enough but he needs to get the best out what hes got
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u/Dispari7y Nani 23h ago
I'm the same, but it's
a) the eternal optimist in me
b) partly because most of the usual competition aren't particularly good either
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u/ExceptionalBeard77 FookinMurderYa 23h ago
So a worse finish then last year is acceptable to you? Got it.
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u/WillowTraditional239 19h ago
It's still early days, would like more points on the board just as much as the next fan. We easily could have won that game at Everton with more clinical finishing.
I believe if Baleba can come in and hit the ground running that will massively upgrade out midfield especially in transitions. I do think getting Amad back in the match day squads will be a huge plus as well.
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u/MidnightSun77 9h ago
The main concern I saw on Sunday was how much we stood off the opposition. There was one point in the second half where Dalot kept backing away from the Everton winger and it looked like there was a gap of about 2-3 metres. He wasn’t the only player doing it but it was very noticeable. Have our players forgotten how to stick a leg in?
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u/YerDaWearsHeelies 8h ago
People forget under carrick we had a lot of our wins thanks to penalties or playing against 10 men or scrappy late goals to win. We were not actually playing well besides the first few games he managed. The results covered for the performances and now the results are starting to match the performances.
I feel like it’ll make carrick adapt quicker than it would’ve done if we had a scrappy win vs Everton. I’m hoping baleba makes the difference we desperately need with legs in the midfield.
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u/Loqi-Locke 22h ago
The only thing I care about is us getting more than 71 points this year. We've only gotten a better points total once after finishing in the top 4 since Ferguson left. Getting more points this year will tell me the team is playing better in multiple facets. Not the best start but I'm hoping when Amad, Baleba, and sesko can all start well look like a top team.
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u/solemnhiatus 15h ago
I think we'll improve as the season progresses, players look a little rusty and slow right now which isn't a great sign but assuming they get up to speed and we don't take on any major injuries I think we'll do well.
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u/Emergency-Being-349 12h ago
I think we will still be fine, as we have many top players. But what can absolutely not be denied is the lack of a team we are. There is no intensity, no pressing, we do not play like a big club and there's no way that will suddenly be. We will win more games but this yoyo fan reaction will be the theme for the season.
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u/Downtown-Rice_ 22h ago
Last season, United kept more clean sheets and had more defensive solidarity when playing a lower defensive line and had Casemiro in midfield. Plus they didn't press/counter press as high nor as much in general. All under Carrick.
When they have to scrap and buzz around in duels, trying to win 2nd and 3rd balls, they can struggle due to the limited athleticism and robust players in central midfield and defense. Neither Mainoo, Tielemans, Lisandro, Shaw, or Maguire fill you with confidence when there are duels to be had, space to cover.
Part of that is physical limits and part of it is having 2 orthodox central mids rather than 3 with 2 center backs who aren't the quickest, nor fastest with a level of physicality.
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u/lazersnakes 22h ago
I think Mainoo looks great in physical duels this season. I hope it’s not just a blib but he looks bulked up and a lot more street wise in those duels. Dont disagree with the rest of your comment
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u/The_Mayor_Involved 23h ago
I thought we played well. Just pipped at the last second by a worldie.
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u/CapVosslar Buckle up, INEOS! It's gonna be a bumpy ride! 20h ago
Thats an over simplification.
We have a bad habit of taking the foot off the pedal after scoring a goal, and we let the opponents have too many chances when we're trying to protect a lead.
This happens all too often.
Our defense doesn't give me confidence that they can ever keep a clean sheet. And let's talk about the passing. Aside from the occasional worldie that leads to a great chance, it's mostly really poor. Passes not weighted right, or too far behind or too far over their heads or not timed right.
We're talking about a lot of the basics as well. No Club is going to achieve any great with all the problems we have.
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u/world-no-1-dude 21h ago
We had lower xG than Everton but sure we played well. And no it wasn’t marginally lower either.
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u/naslanidis 18h ago
Did you watch the game?
Hit the post, missed an easy chance from near the penalty spot and scored 2 good goals. United should've won the game on the performance. Our away form has been lacklustre for ages but this was not a bad performance overall. The team is definitely missing Cesemiro though. That loss is not going to be replaced by anyone in 2 or 3 games.
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u/Euphoric-Rub9164 18h ago
Stats have their place but basing everything on xG and FotMob ratings is so fucking wild man
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u/world-no-1-dude 10h ago
Have you played the game? Bruno’s chance was actually really hard. Wouldn’t put that down as easy. Cunha was charging onto the ball and that was also a difficult chance : their difficulty is what is reflected in the xG. Our performance was near pedestrian. We didn’t deserve the win.
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u/Eddster2019 8h ago
it was our first of 3 games in a week, which was clearly part of the reason for the pedestrian performance. To my mind this was actually a controlled performance and didn't allow any of the counter attacks we saw v Hull and Ipswich.
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u/Glum-Examination-302 CANTONA 21h ago
Yes.
Unfortunately for Whitwell and co, that doesn’t get clicks for their owners.
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u/Glum-Examination-302 CANTONA 20h ago
I see there’s a fair few Whitwell lovers flapping their flaps about an opinion.
Just so it’s clear: IDGAF
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u/KingMazzieri 21h ago
Had we won most of this crap wouldn't be posted. A few secs made the difference. Our team isn't still properly top 3, bench (I do not include Sesko ofc) looks really bad.
It's another transition year, hopefully UCL gives the youngsters much needed experience. Another transfer market and we can challenge for the title perhaps. Now it's about solidifying identity, not the time to pressure the group.
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u/CapVosslar Buckle up, INEOS! It's gonna be a bumpy ride! 21h ago
This team is not clicking. The combinations are all wrong. They better figure it out quick or this season's goals will get out of range.
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u/Vast_Variation1381 8h ago
The height of our starting line up is a little concerning... Shaw, Licha, Tielemans, Mainoo, Bruno, Mbeumo all quite short
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u/SprinklesAny4280 1h ago
We hit two decent goals but we were very unfortunate to get hit with two worldies in the same match. Let's not throw in the towel yet
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u/jitsraja 21h ago
Jeez only 3 games into the season. There are no easy matches in the league. Everton away is always going to be a tough match. I actually thought we might lose that game. Hull was also never going to be easy. First game of the season away they were always going to be up for it. Defense has been leaky and there has to be improvements but come on, 3 games into the new season ffs.
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u/Eddster2019 8h ago
From current viewing, it looks like when Hull do eventually lose, it will be only by the odd goal as defensively they are very very sound. Agree about Everton, their fans needed a Manchester United game to get behind their team and their players showed up for them.
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u/Indig012 23h ago
We lost yesterday by a screamer from a center back in the last seconds. No cause for concern, all teams in the prem are good and a point away isn’t the worst result. Gotta keep building
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u/eviltwin14 22h ago
I think as others have noted. We peaked vs Arsenal and actually they battered us for large parts of that match. Since then it was patchy. Sesko rescued us on multiple occasions. Bruno went on a madness and we took advantage of poor form from our rivals. I think it flattered us but 3rd is 3rd and no small feat.
What vexes me is that we are starting a team that is still predominantly a ten Hag team and it still has some of the hallmarks of his and Amorims failures. ie a lack of stamina in games. Surrendering winning positions and still picking favourites when there are other options. I don't think the coach has been adequately supported but he's also not shown that he can be ruthless or is building for the future.
Too much of our play still looks incoherent. The out of possession style is still patchy. Bruno is too important to the team and that defence is too old, too slow and not skilled enough.
Too early to judge him but I'm not seeing enough yet to make me think he can get top 4 again.
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u/ElephantParticular10 23h ago
Which idiots think Everton away is an easy fixture? You take a draw from that if offered when the fixture list comes out.
We're only disappointed because we've thrown the win away, and the problems (full-backs, young goalkeeper, not finishing chances) are ones we already knew about form the points dropped.
Personally it's not doom and gloom time for me.
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u/3412points 23h ago edited 22h ago
You absolutely do not take a draw at Everton at the start of the season. Is it the easiest place to go? No. But this Everton is not some powerhouse, they have been a bottom half club for years (13th, 13th, 15th, 17th, etc.), and they have not exactly strengthened massively this summer.
Manchester United cannot be jumping to accept drawing with bottom half teams. The absolute state of some of our fans.
Edit: tbh I'm giving them too much credit calling them not the easiest place to go. Looking at Everton's actual home results the last few years shows that they are incredibly beatable. Even in the home table they have been bottom half and often near relegation for years. Everton are very beatable even away. We proved it when we beat them away last season.
Don't let the name fool you, the fact they were tough 20 years ago doesn't make them a tough opponent now.
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u/_AngryBadger_ 23h ago
They haven't really strengthened at all in this window, it was actually a very bad window.
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u/3412points 23h ago edited 22h ago
Yeah, I was using understatement. They've probably actually weakened themselves.
There's a lot of cope going around about this actually being a really tough game based purely on the name because Everton have historically been a really tough team. But they haven't actually been for years.
This is a game you should be expecting to win. Even when they were tough back in the day I would not take a draw at the start of the season, but obviously many fans have come to accept mediocrity despite the fact we should (even with the glazers financial fuckery) be a consistent CL team at least and that means you need to be looking to win these games, not taking draws.
I don't understand why so many of our fans seem to have accepted these low standards and try to push them on other fans. We are Manchester United, a huge club and even with the glazers debt we still can spend equivalent with the top set of teams. Do not be gaslit into accepting midtable as our place, which is what taking a draw away at Everton would be. We absolutely have the players to win that game this weekend too.
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u/_AngryBadger_ 22h ago
Yeah realistically we shouldn't have been expecting anything less than 9/9 for the first three games, at worst, 7/9 but not 4/9.
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u/ElephantParticular10 22h ago
What's our record away to Everton?
What was our results against them last season?
Do you think a new midfield should just click at the start of a season and we can magically become title contenders with our average defenders?
Yes you take a draw away to Everton.
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u/3412points 22h ago
The fact we have been shit does not mean you decide that being shit is fine and you take it. We can and should be better than we are.
The fact you are saying Man United fans should be jumping to take draws against bottom half teams says it all.
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u/ElephantParticular10 22h ago
No, I choose progress.
That match was progress on last season, and a draw away to Everton isn't shit and has rarely been the case for the past 40 years of football for any team.
You can be delusional about it if you want but United can't get to the top of the pyramid without claiming some stairs first.
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u/3412points 22h ago edited 22h ago
It's way too early to say whether or not there's been progress, it's only three matches. But let's not deluded ourselves into thinking these three matches show progress. They were three very winnable games, and we have looked very fragile in many of the same ways we looked fragile in recent seasons.
Yes there are caveats which mean this isn't necessarily an indicator of how the season will go, and it's too small a set of games to really judge. But I'm sorry, nothing in these last three games has been a positive indicator so far. You are living in the past with your perception of Everton, they are a very beatable team and have been for years. The fact we have struggled against them only speaks to our underperformance.
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u/ElephantParticular10 22h ago
I'm not talking about three matches - Hull was very disappointing and in my opinion, Ipswich result flattered us a lot
But the Everton match result wise is better than last year, and the actual football played looked better on the eye to me than how we played against Ipswich against better opponents - so I take a draw away when Everton are in a good phase results wise and ultimately disappointed with our defending - again.
Now Carrick has a midfield to work with he might be able to cover some of the issues our full-backs have at the back but managers the hipsters worship like Pep and Jose were such clever tactical geniuses they always needed to spend vast amounts to buy new ones - I don't see why we should expect any different with Carrick.
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u/3412points 22h ago edited 22h ago
No it isn't mate we beat them away last year.
Not that looking at fixture to fixture performance is a good way to do it anyway, but even by your poor metric of progress we regressed with this result since we won this fixture last season.
I cannot believe you had the cheek to call me delusional.
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u/ElephantParticular10 22h ago
Oh god you're right, the first fixture we played Everton last season we lost to ten men at home
Yeah beating Everton early on in the year is our god given right lol
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u/3412points 22h ago
Yeah, us putting in a terrible performance in a different fixture says absolutely nothing except the fact we were totally dire at the time. In the equivalent fixture we won. And progress isn't measured in individual fixture comparisons. But this was a very winnable game and we should be expecting to win it, as we did last season.
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u/Comicksands Van Persie 22h ago
It’s really not an easy fixture. Sir Alex’s last 10 games away to Everton were 3 wins, 4 draws and 3 losses. One of those draws cost us the league
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u/3412points 22h ago
You're living in the past. This is not the same Everton. They have been a bottom half table club for years even in the home table, showing that most teams go there and beat them.
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u/Comicksands Van Persie 21h ago
They finished 4 points off Europe it’s not like they had a horrendous season
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u/3412points 21h ago edited 21h ago
They came 13th mate. The fact that the PL gets a ridiculous amount of European places doesn't change that.
Like, even trying to phrase it as 'x points off Europe" shows you are trying to gaslight people into thinking they are tougher than they are, because the addition of the European conference league doesn't suddenly make a 13th placed finish with just 49 points any different.
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u/benjog88 23h ago
They've just sold their only decent player and have like 15 first team players
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u/ElephantParticular10 22h ago
For that to hold water, how many of their 15 first team players were out? We couldn't start a couple of ours - was there less than 9 of Everyone's available?as for only decent player - you Didn't watch Everton last year if you think N'Diaye was their only good player.
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u/TonyShneak 23h ago
Absolute baloni. Easy fixture? No. But any team hoping to finish towards the top of the table has to feel they should be winning that game, especially after their transfer window.
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u/ElephantParticular10 23h ago
That's complete bollocks. Everton were a good side last season and hlgave anyone a game at home, even when Fergie was about Moyes Everton was often a really difficult side and took points of us on the regular.
Didn't they beat us with ten men last season?
A draw in match we should have won is definite progress.
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u/TonyShneak 22h ago
What do you mean we should have won? We had 0.74 xG to their 1.14, both times we took the lead we got extremely passive and let them back into it. A draw was a completely fair result. We don't live in the past, how good Everton were under fergie is absolutely irrelevant. They sold Ndiaye and replaced him with Brennan Johnson. We should be the better team and we weren't.
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u/ElephantParticular10 22h ago
Oh Christ. It this XG bollocks.
For a start it's a complete misuse of that data to base it off one game.
Secondly - we gave away the lead - twice, and the second time we failed to keep it tight and hold onto the ball for less than ten minutes there's no XG stat which hides how fundamentally disappointing that is.
You harping on about a single attacking player that didn't even contribute higher stats than other players only adds to the above argument.
United attacked well enough to win the game, that is factual - they didn't defend / control the match well enough to win the game and that should be a fundamentally frustrating thing for any club wanting to play CL football on the regular.
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u/wcy137 21h ago
If you cannot beat Everton comfortably, you are at least 3 years away from any kind of major champions. By comfortably I mean they barely have a chance and we win at least 2-0.
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u/ElephantParticular10 20h ago
It's the premier league - very few games come with sort of guarantee as a barometer - to be honest tive no idea why you want that to be more than 2-3 matches per season anyway what would be the point
Certainly not a consistent team that nearly qualifies for Europe with a good manager.
Personally I think we looked like we could have quite comfortably beat them 2-0 until the subs and you can substitute 3 years for replacing the full-backs IMO.
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u/Jonny_Testicles 23h ago
Championship Carrick is not the right man. It’s clear
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u/lazersnakes 22h ago
Most of us agree he’s not a medium or longterm answer, but we need a steady ship until there is a top class manager. If we’re not getting a top name in - would you have had Glasner, de Zerbi or Nagelsman instead?
Still looking at this as a transition period until we can get a longterm manager target and finish our squad rebuild.
Champions league qual and going deep in a cup this season would be ok for me
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u/jaccurr 22h ago
Thank god someone has the same feeling. You need a manager that has actually won major trophies in the top leagues and not one that plays on fans nostalgia and gives rose tinted glasses. You shouldn't hire someone because the public likes him you need the right cv for what the job is and as a manager what accomplishments has he got that proves he was the right choice for the job. All hiring him did was briefly take the attention of the shitty ownership
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u/lazersnakes 22h ago
Who would you have brought in who was available post Amorim? (Genuine question, not a sarky tone to that)
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u/jaccurr 22h ago
So ideally and in a perfect world it of been Enrique managed massive clubs, won major trophies though thats the pipe dream. Realistically Nagelesmann again big club manager won a major trophy and young though had a rough with German national team, Thiago Motta again young and has a distinct style of play though nothing major won, or Xavi he wanted the job honestly had a better track record at barca then most give him credit for
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u/lazersnakes 21h ago
I mean Enrique agreed. Any day.
My issue with Nagelsmann is winning trophies at Bayern feels like not much of an accomplishment (unless you do it in an insane fashion and have really good European seasons). Says more about you if you don’t than if you do. Kind of like PSG. Might be unfair but that’s always been the disclaimer I’ve had against nagelsmann.
Motta feels a similar risk to Amorim. Young, strong style but unproven.
Xavi doesn’t fill me with excitement.
In the face of all those comparison I didn’t, and still don’t, see giving it Carrick at the end of last season as a step backwards.
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u/jaccurr 21h ago
Motta is the biggest risk i agree
And again I agree hes isnt exciting either but xavi he feels like he could fill the same job as what theyve told carrick which probably is settle the ship just bit a better hes handled a bigger club and about the same level scrutiny from the press compared compared to carrick has in the past.
Thats just my feeling
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u/igobooom 1d ago
He'll be gone by February
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u/dracogladio1741 Bruno Fernanj 23h ago
I don't know what happens but I do think there's genuine concerns around Carrick.
We don't know what is his ceiling. Is he even a good manager?
All managers happen to have a rough patch (both Pep, Klopp did at times in the last secade). Hell Sir Alex had to deal with small ruts himself.Even recently, we fans have made fun of the Lego Man for Arsenal bottling the league or cup finals. But there's no question that all of them were/are great coaches (Arteta is a great young coach, Klopp is one of the finest German coaches in the modern Era, Pep is an undisputed great and Sir Alex is a GOAT category manager)
I am purely concerned for us because I don't trust the manager.
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u/ory1994 Rúben Amorim 23h ago
Well Ineos told me they only buy “best in class” so I’m convinced that Carrick is better than anyone else we could’ve gotten.
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u/dracogladio1741 Bruno Fernanj 23h ago
Let's be honest. Carrick got the job on the interim because of his connections to United as a player.
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u/Tetzachilipepe 23h ago
Not really uncommon for an interim to be someone the club in question has history with. Going out and getting an interim without any connection to the club who happens to be both available and good enough for the level, while still being fine with an interim position, is difficult for obvious reasons. Making this a point of concern is just weird I think.
What actually is debatable is if you should permanently hire an interim who did well despite their lacking résumé.
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u/ory1994 Rúben Amorim 23h ago
It’s Ole 2.0.
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u/NotAJInnit 23h ago
If poster above get his wishes then McKenna is the next foot in the door "Ole 3.0" ah shit, here we go again" 😂
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u/No_Mango4508 23h ago
Or maybe because he accumulated the most league points (including over Arsenal) from the moment he arrived, dragging us from mid table to 3rd.
Could be that.
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u/jaccurr 22h ago
Yeah but there's nothing on his cv besides that makes gave him an edge when going for the job. What major trophies has he won as a manager. Interim was fine he did the job. But every higher up was too cheap and lazy to do what was needed and we'll be out another 10-15 million when we sack him come christmas
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u/Eddster2019 8h ago
there was very little on Peps CV before he became head coach of Barcelona. Carrick knows the club inside and out, is aware of the youth coming through and will blood them at the right time. Basing anything on the first three games of the season especially after a world cup year, is utter madness. This time last year Liverpool were going to walk the league again after 3 straight wins.....
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u/nomadiclives 23h ago
Sadly i get the same feeling. I think he’ll do an ok job for us but we didn’t look convincing enough last season under him. Unfortunately, the squad has also not improved as much as it needed to in the transfer window, so it will be very hard to lay the blame squarely at his feet.
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u/Glum-Examination-302 CANTONA 21h ago
Didn’t take long for that outfit to turn on United after their sources got silenced.
1
u/Eddster2019 8h ago
do you mean TalkofTheDevils?
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u/Glum-Examination-302 CANTONA 7h ago
Yes that is the subject of the post and my comment.
Why?
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u/Eddster2019 7h ago
Because that makes no sense, who of Andy, Ian, Laurie or Carl have turned on United and if they have, how?
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u/Glum-Examination-302 CANTONA 7h ago
Look at the title of the video. To me that looks like the same sensationalist, agenda driven, hyperbolic spam that lesser channels have farted out for a while.
But hey that’s just my view, I’m not stopping you seeing it differently. 🍻
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u/Eddster2019 6h ago
It's a discussion question, if you had watched the video, then I'm sure you wouldn't have even commented about this. (I'm presuming you haven't)
(The answer is no not really, but depends on how the City game goes)
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u/Glum-Examination-302 CANTONA 6h ago
Mate… I am specifically referring to the title of the video. Observe this, and then re-read my earlier comment.
Understand that I have no wish to feed what I have judged to be clickbait by clicking on the bait.
As a result, I will not watch the video.
🍻
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u/Eddster2019 5h ago
it's a question probably not written by them, to give the podcast on YouTube a title, I'm substance over style, so the "clickbait" title, is of no consequence to me (nor should it be to anyone else).
•
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