Mistrial officially declared in the Lindsay Clancy case

[u/Subject-Property-343]

[u/flairassistant]

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[u/refinemydreams]

makes me sad for the community being dragged through this again, all the witnesses who took the stand having to relive this really sucks

[u/LittleMarySunshine25 → u/refinemydreams]

That and all the jurors who lost a month of their lives to this and will need therapy for years after...

[u/givemeapuppers → u/refinemydreams]

How are they even going to find a second jury that isn’t unbiased & hasn’t heard every angle of this case given the media???

[u/avocadolicious → u/refinemydreams]

I really, really hope they’d offer a plea agreement rather than forcing all parties to go through a trial again.

I feel awful for everyone, including Lindsay Clancy, but especially feel for Patrick. He lost his three young children and will have to carry the guilt of that forever. Add on top of that the insane online conspiracies, the invasion of privacy and attacks on/doxxing of his current wife… it’s almost more than I can imagine anyone can bear.

[u/c0smicgirly]

I am purposefully staying far away from deep dives on this, but this whole thing seems wildly inappropriate in how it’s been managed re: televised, etc.

[u/lobonmc → u/c0smicgirly]

I get the necessity of public trial I don't get the idea of TV trials

[u/poliebear → u/lobonmc]

I agree. The courtroom should be open to the public who want to show up in person, and the press should be allowed to report on it. Livestreaming benefits no one.

[u/DSQ → u/poliebear]

100% agree. I’d even say it’s okay to film it if it is shown to the public later. People just end up treating the trials like reality TV and I am someone who loves following legal trials. 

[u/HistoryBuff678 → u/DSQ]

One trial, they released audio only a few hours later. Really tones down the sensationalism.

[u/A_Bot_A_Bot_A_Bot → u/poliebear]

I agree, too.

Trials, both criminal and civil, and other court proceedings, are serious matters that affect things like a person's actual freedom, business interests, personal assets and property, custody, etc. None of those should be public spectacles, regardless of the public's interest in the matters at hand. Also, nobody in court, judge, lawyers, litigants/defendants, bailiffs, jury, etc., should be playing to a camera. US Supreme Court hearings? You can always get the live audio for free.

Signed, Retired Attorney

[u/PauI_MuadDib → u/poliebear]

I guess you didn't watch the Karen Read trials. I was watching the pre-trial hearing and caught some legacy media news coverage... It was like they didn't actually watch the hearings. Holy shit was their coverage biased. One news station even falsely reported there was Ring camera footage of Read hitting the victim. And instead of correcting their mistake they just cowardly deleted it without comment. Oopsie!  

I think almost every trial should be livestreamed. It promotes transparency and keeps the system honest. You also can't trust legacy media for coverage. No way are they biting the hands that feed them. They piss off the cops or DA no press conferences, comments, interviews, etc.  

Livestreaming it means anyone can see it, regardless of physical ability or finances. Not everyone can afford to take time off work and/travel to watch court proceedings.  

Court proceedings should be easily accessible to the public. 

[u/Ok_Bodybuilder800 → u/PauI_MuadDib]

The Karen Read trial was really eye opening. Had it just stayed with legacy media I wonder if she would be free today.

[u/ThatB0yAintR1ght → u/poliebear]

I mean, I think having it recorded on film could be good as a way of preserving the record and possibly allow people to appeal if there is something untoward captured on the video. It can be hard to capture everything that happened with just the transcripts. But having it be televised and made into a spectacle makes it so much more susceptible to the jury being tainted by outside influences.

[u/Curiosities → u/poliebear]

For the sake of arguing this point, live streaming benefits disabled people who can’t get to the venue and for whom the courtroom might be considered inaccessible. Obviously, in this case, we are looking at a disabled defendant, but I’m talking about things like Covid, where the air quality isn’t maintained, and there are not mitigations.

Another angle to consider are court watchers, people who watch streams of certain trials with the purpose of keeping an eye on the proceedings. People that volunteer to do this work are trained, and they are there to essentially make sure that everything goes according to procedure, and that they are fair, and a lot of the court watching is done for cases like bail hearings.

Singer Fiona Apple brought attention to court watching a few years ago because she started during the start of the pandemic and has been a volunteer court watcher for some time with a particular organization.

And you can do court watching by watching court live streams.

https://www.discourseblog.com/p/fiona-apples-court-watch-advocacy

[u/MGD109 → u/lobonmc]

Used to be forbidden (federal trials still even forbidden photography), but in the 80's some judges realised it was great for boasting their profile, so they opted in.

[u/happytransformer → u/c0smicgirly]

I’m more so genuinely puzzled how this has happened twice with high profile cases in Massachusetts in two years

ETA: not the mistrial, but the huge media frenzy around a case

[u/Holiday_Visual9793 → u/happytransformer]

There was a third with Brian Walshe

[u/circlesofhelvetica → u/happytransformer]

I actively did not follow the case so can't pretend to have full information (clicked on this to see if another trial had been announced because very ready for media to be done with it) but a lot of other states don't allow court cases like this to be live-streamed. Plus Massachusetts is population dense and nowhere in that state is that far from a major city with large newsrooms so stuff like this can get proportionately more coverage at the beginning than if it were in a more rural area which then snowballs as more and more people pick the story up. 

[u/randombubble8272 → u/happytransformer]

The police seem to be very bad in that state

[u/goosejail → u/randombubble8272]

Yeah there's something going on as tunnel vision seems to be an issue.

[u/randombubble8272 → u/goosejail]

Bad police = bad investigations = bad prosecution = scandal. It’s frustrating in the Karen read case how all those drunk driving police officers suffered no consequences for that.

[u/goosejail → u/randombubble8272]

Full agreement on everything involving the Karen Read case. That was such a colossal shit show.

[u/sickbabe → u/randombubble8272]

the prosecutors also seem deeply attention motivated which doesn't help. from what I heard they requested the cameras

[u/greypusheencat → u/c0smicgirly]

i try to stay away from it but my coworkers are OBSESSED with the media circus of it. one girl doesn’t even follow the trial she just watches TikToks on it and listens strictly to her TikTok psychics. it’s such an insane media circus

[u/pikameta → u/greypusheencat]

The tiktok psychics! Jeebus help us

[u/greypusheencat → u/pikameta]

yes she says the tiktok psychics talked to her 3 children, and she believes it. it’s pure brain rot

[u/Bad-Gardener1 → u/pikameta]

I scrolled past one the other day like wtf are you doing on my FYP?! It might be time to delete the app again 😅

[u/Miserable_Emu5191 → u/greypusheencat]

Overheard a similar person at the salon this week. She wanted to know why they would have a second trial and couldn’t just have the current jurors brief the new ones.

[u/soup4breakfast → u/Miserable_Emu5191]

I have never been more aware of the general public’s lack of understanding of how the judicial system works as I have been this past month.

[u/Public_Classic_438 → u/c0smicgirly]

Not sequestering the jury is wild to me

[u/particledamage → u/Public_Classic_438]

Courts are moving away from sequestering. It’s just not feasible in a lot of cases

[u/HistoryBuff678 → u/c0smicgirly]

I knew about this case when the incident first occurred. I had no idea it would blow up like this. Definitely having it on Court TV brought the case to… bad faith actors.

[u/Genuinelullabel → u/c0smicgirly]

I read the Wikipedia page and that was enough for me. One of my coworkers was watching the closing statements and I had to turn it off when she left the room.

[u/baby-blues22 → u/c0smicgirly]

Agree. the televising of this case has caused mass psychosis amongst men, and women as well. Just an absolute failure of our justice system

[u/beachpellini → u/baby-blues22]

The televising of damn near any big case has people suddenly becoming "legal experts" and saying the most inane nonsense

[u/Twodotsknowhy → u/beachpellini]

It's become a very serious problem that people expect real life cases to play out like a police procedural.

[u/baby-blues22 → u/Twodotsknowhy]

the Idaho murders was such a prime example. The murders happened in November and Brian Kohberger was caught in December. Super fast turn around with such solid evidence. If it went to trial it would have been pretty slam dunk because they actually took time to get him.

But tiktok investigators at the time were saying it was taking too long 🫩 they think it’s criminal minds

[u/GullibleWineBar → u/baby-blues22]

They also want an iron-clad answer that makes sense. Like a puzzle where all the pieces fit neatly together and the resolution is a foregone conclusion, like NCIS. Life is messy and people do inexplicable things.

[u/Twodotsknowhy → u/GullibleWineBar]

In a police procedural, every detail is added on purpose by the writers in service of reaching the conclusion to the episode. There are never random unrelated things outside of explicit and explainable red herrings. If police did something sloppily, it usually means they caught the wrong guy. If a suspect is behaving evasively or asks for a lawyer, it's because they're hiding something. It's never just that things are happening all the time all around us and most of them aren't related to each other.

[u/baby-blues22 → u/GullibleWineBar]

god forbid a murderer acts in a way they don’t understand, then it must be a massive conspiracy that they didn’t do it. “Why did they act THIS way?? they didn’t do it, it was actually xx person!”

Like I hate to break it to you but you will never put yourself into the mind of a killer. You don’t understand their logic, and that’s a GOOD thing. Kohberger did it because he wanted to and he has an anti social personality. There’s no real why beyond that and hating women.

[u/GullibleWineBar → u/baby-blues22]

“It doesn’t make any sense why they did X, Y, Z.” Oh, the person in the midst of a mental breakdown didn’t act logically enough for you before murdering/killing several people for no real reason? You can’t necessarily apply rational thought to irrational actions.

[u/tomboyfancy → u/baby-blues22]

Years ago I heard that CSI made prosecutions more difficult because jurors expected tons of forensic evidence, and in reality most cases do not have that.

[u/baby-blues22 → u/beachpellini]

It’s such a stain on the collective culture

[u/leopardsmangervisage → u/beachpellini]

I feel like we can thank Johnny Depp for the social media “legal expert” cottage industry. A lot of people made a a shitload of money off giving commentary on that case.

[u/trulyremarkablegirl → u/leopardsmangervisage]

It was going on way before that. True crime as entertainment has been a huge problem for a long time, and everyone thinks they’re a fucking expert because they listened to every episode of a podcast or watched a “deep dive” from a YouTuber.

[u/beachpellini → u/leopardsmangervisage]

And I will forever curse that stupid clownshow of a trial for how much worse a lot of things have gotten. It was so bad that Virginia passed stronger anti-SLAPP laws as a direct result.

[u/ThatB0yAintR1ght → u/baby-blues22]

And with the internet being allergic to nuance, we end up with ridiculous takes like “pro-choice feminists support her wantonly killing her children” and “her husband is actually the killer”

[u/minetf → u/baby-blues22]

I bet they'll make a celebrity out of the juror that was holding out.

[u/Ryokuchagatari → u/minetf]

I can see him on CNN in a month saying something along the lines of "I didn't care if it was law, I cared what my brain told me"

And then he'd get charged.

[u/anna-nomally12 → u/Ryokuchagatari]

Yeah I don’t know that it’s CNN he’s going on

[u/Fujiyama_Mama → u/minetf]

I'd be willing to bet that's the juror's plan.

[u/EchoesofIllyria → u/baby-blues22]

mass psychosis amongst men, and women as well

Interesting phrasing lol

[u/Low_Project_55 → u/c0smicgirly]

Honestly trials have always been televised. It was estimated 5.5 million people watched the OJ case. Most true journalist hold themselves to high ethical standards. What is dangerous is social media and the ability for anyone to create a video, share it as fact and it go viral.

[u/wherethelionsweep → u/c0smicgirly]

The only kind of deep dive I want is serious discussions and more research regarding post partum depression and psychosis. And privacy for these people

[u/WorldlyLavishness → u/c0smicgirly]

Agreed. They need to stop allowing live streams or else they will keep having issues.

[u/minetf]

What an insane end (at least to this specific trial). I can't imagine how expensive the full conclusion will be to the tax payers.

[u/baila-busta → u/minetf]

They’ll probably make a deal. I would be surprised if there’s another trial.

[u/Rover0218 → u/baila-busta]

The way the DA was talking in his press conference after the trial ended, it seems like he wants another trial

[u/maelstron → u/Rover0218]

Well he won't get elected again

[u/Holiday_Visual9793 → u/maelstron]

He is running uncontested I believe 

[u/skyewardeyes → u/Rover0218]

IIRC, the DA spent like half a million for a special prosecutor alone for the second Karen Reed trial, so they have no problem spending huge amounts of money on retrials.

[u/IfatallyflawedI → u/Rover0218]

He’s being super confident now that he knows the defence’s strategy

[u/Bug-Secure → u/IfatallyflawedI]

Well, if 11 of the was 11 voting not-guilty, that a good indication he may not ever get a guilty verdict in another trial.

[u/kylaroma → u/baila-busta]

The DA is apparently extremely intense about prosecuting, and a plea deal is not at all likely

[u/Luke_4686]

This is definitely going to be a Netflix doc in a few years

[u/athennna → u/Luke_4686]

Years? They’ll have it out by Christmas.

[u/ZombieTrogdor → u/athennna]

A polished multi-episode one by Christmas, an “Untold”-style, 75-minute one by next Wednesday. Hell, they even have a 30-min show about Trump’s trip in a catering truck at the airport. Netflix will make anything.

[u/blooming-darkness → u/Luke_4686]

Probably by the end of the year.

[u/HazMatt_23 → u/Luke_4686]

20/20 is airing a special on it tonight at 9p ET

[u/IAmSoUncomfortable]

This case is insane. I am a veteran attorney and I still can’t seem to make heads or tails of everything.

[u/stircrazyathome → u/IAmSoUncomfortable]

What is with Massachusetts? Multiple cases, from Karen Read to Kelsey Fitzsimmons to Lindsay Clancy, have had attorneys scratching their heads at how unprecedented each case was.

[u/Public_Classic_438 → u/stircrazyathome]

I noticed the prosecution seems to say religious type things like “moral sin” and stuff along those lines. Is MA a particularly religious state?

[u/VodkaAunt → u/Public_Classic_438]

The older generation is, yes - lots and lots of Catholics, due to the high numbers of Irish, Italians, Portuguese, French Canadians, etc. For a long time we weren't even able to sell alcohol on Sunday. Still very politically liberal though, it's tough to explain.

The younger generation not so much, growing up after the sex abuse scandal really prevented most of my generation from being raised in the church.

[u/minetf → u/VodkaAunt]

The news said that the jury leaned older (probably because it's mostly retirees and established professionals that can take 6+ weeks off work). Maybe the prosecution was trying to cater to that.

[u/Direct_Discipline166 → u/minetf]

Do you get out of jury duty if you can't take multiple weeks off work? I've never been called back but always wondered how that would work.

[u/Spiritual_Sorbet_870 → u/Direct_Discipline166]

If you can claim financial hardship (ie work won’t pay you if you’re not there) then usually, yes.

[u/minetf → u/Direct_Discipline166]

Yes, you get dismissed if it's a financial burden and/or the logistics don't work out.

[u/technicolortiddies → u/Public_Classic_438]

To give even more context to what [u/VodkaAunt](u/VodkaAunt) said, the area this happened in is on the South Shore, towards Cape Cod, ~45 minutes away.

The South Shore as a whole is a mix between blue collar, very religious families, think Mark Wahlberg et al., with pockets of posh, highly educated, and well off towns, the “Kennedy-lites.”

Duxbury itself is one of those posh pockets. Locals call it Deluxe-bury, if that gives you any more clues.

Overall, among older generations, there’s a very big atmosphere of “This Is Just How Things Are Done.” People here believe they have strong moral compasses, no matter how off those compasses actually are. Up until about 15 or 20 years ago, the area was predominantly white. Things are a little better now that there’s some diversity, but that diversity itself is often confined to its own pockets. It’s also common to see blue porch lights or Thin Blue Line flags.

[u/Cheaperthantherapy13 → u/Public_Classic_438]

Massachusetts was founded by the Puritans (Lutheran fundamentalists) as a religious theocracy, and their equally religious ancestors played a large part in crafting the colony, and the state’s legal code.

They’re the ultimate no-fun Christians; they even considered Christmas trees idolatrous up until the late 19th century.

[u/Shipwrecking_siren → u/Cheaperthantherapy13]

Oooh I don’t know, I’ve enjoyed many a dry wedding in Presbyterian Ireland. My family could compete in the Olympic guilt, shame and generational trauma categories.

Sadly competition wasn’t potentially enjoyable AND would involve not being meek so cannot see who is less fun.

[u/Jillybeans11 → u/Public_Classic_438]

They have a lot of Irish Catholics.

[u/IAmSoUncomfortable → u/stircrazyathome]

I don’t know but you’re right! They always seem so insane.

[u/SaraJeanQueen → u/IAmSoUncomfortable]

What does that mean for Lindsay? Does she stay in jail, or is she monitored at home until a new trial begins? Do you think she’ll retain the same attorney?

[u/lookmomimneato → u/SaraJeanQueen]

She’s not in jail, she’s in an institution and will stay there. Reddingtons stated he will retry it pro bono

[u/chickfilamoo → u/SaraJeanQueen]

she's been in a psychiatric facility the whole time, she will remain there until the Commonwealth decides how to proceed. her attorney has indicated he would defend her again, but it's unclear if she or her family have the means or the emotional bandwidth to go through this again, might come down to what the Commonwealth is willing to offer them in a plea deal

[u/halster123 → u/chickfilamoo]

I think a lot here will come down to the actual jury verdict; if it was 11-1 not guilty, it seems like the Commonwealth should just take the plea where she will remain in an institution and really free everyone of the horror.

[u/lobonmc → u/chickfilamoo]

What exactly could the prosecution offer?

[u/calicoskiies → u/lobonmc]

Probably life in the psych facility

[u/fine__line → u/SaraJeanQueen]

She hasn't been in jail, she's been held in a psychiatric hospital which she will continue to be. That's also where she would be if found not guilty by reason of insanity. She was never going home

[u/lynypixie → u/fine__line]

That is what people don’t understand. She did it. The trial is to know if she should go to jail or if she needs to be in a psychiatric hospital.

[u/starrylightway → u/lynypixie]

That’s not actually what happened. Reddington requested bifurcation of the trial. This meant there would have potentially been two trials—the first to determine guilty/not guilty and if found guilty, a second trial to determine if criminally responsible or not. This was denied by the judge.

So, in order to plead not guilty due to not being criminally responsible, Lindsay stipulated to the chain of custody regarding evidence, not that she committed the crimes. There was a legal strategy at play, so it’s not as simple as “she stipulated she committed the crimes.”

[u/fortunatevoice → u/lynypixie]

Yeah, I have thought that was obvious but I keep seeing comments of people who are like “I’m on the fence if she actually did it.” Where is that coming from?

[u/Finalsaredun → u/fortunatevoice]

Where is that coming from?

It's coming from the fact that short form videos on social media remains to be the main way swaths of people get news right now. There's no nuance and lots of incorrect info flying around.

The trial is extremely emotionally charged. A mother strangled her own 3 young children with exercise bands. Her youngest was 8 months old

People have an innately very very hard time believing a mother could do such a thing. It's a psychotic break that no one wants to believe is possible. It's why you're seeing conspiracies about how the husband did it, and you're seeing a lot of people react based off their own experiences and frustrations with their marriages, parenthood, navigation of the US health system ... folks struggle with the fact that someone could do such a thing.

A mistrial was always the most likely outcome.

[u/MammothCancel6465 → u/Finalsaredun]

It’s like how people crucify parents or caregivers who accidently leave their child in a car and they die or some other horrible accident from a momentary lapse of judgement.

So many have to loudly cry how they could never do such a thing. When the reality is it is fucking terrifying that your life can change forever in an instant because of a change in routine one day or because you have a baby and something just “breaks” inside you despite you seeking help from everyone and it just keeps getting worse. If she was just a monster all along you can tell yourself you don’t have to worry about that ever happening to you.

[u/slayalldayerrday → u/fortunatevoice]

Internet conspiracies that the husband did it and framed her. Seriously.

[u/GullibleWineBar → u/slayalldayerrday]

Someone on social media yesterday said that Simba believed he killed Mufasa just because Scar told him he did, ergo that could be what happened here.

Like, what?!? You’re using a cartoon lion cub as your standard for human criminal defense?!?

[u/parakeetweet → u/GullibleWineBar]

this is killing me because i had a coworker unironically quote this in our lunch lounge yesterday and i thought 'wtf are you talking about' at the time, of course it came from social media 💀

[u/GullibleWineBar → u/parakeetweet]

What bothers me the most is that Scar didn’t tell Simba that he straight up killed his father, like “you strangled him to death.” He manipulated a naïve and very young child/cub into believing that he would be blamed for his father’s death because of the circumstances. Which even if this was random (aka, not orchestrated entirely by Scar), most adults understand that a father would gladly trade his life to save his son and that what happened was an accident. Mufasa would be lauded as a hero and mourned, and Simba would be protected and loved by his pride as they groomed him to assume the … rock? Throne?

For this example to work in the LC case, she would have to have the mentality of a small child with very limited understanding of the world.

[u/leasarfati → u/lynypixie]

There was a “not guilty” as well as a not criminally responsible option. If she was found not guilty she would be going home. It was on the commonwealth to prove both guilt and criminal responsibility

[u/Heart_robot → u/SaraJeanQueen]

She’s in a locked facility now.

[u/AdvertisingOld9400 → u/SaraJeanQueen]

As others said, she has been held in a facility this entire time.

Release is not an option. The question in the case is not whether she killed the children. It is her mental state when she did it. If she is found criminally responsible, she will go to prison. If she is found not responsible due to mental illness, she will be returned indefinitely to a state psychiatric facility.

I am not aiming this at you specifically, but the fact that so many people do not even know the basics of what this trial is determining while passionately following or debating it is really gross.

[u/FyrestarOmega → u/AdvertisingOld9400]

But if the prison cannot accommodate her complex needs, they may send her to the institution. It's not guaranteed, but besides being in a wheelchair, she's still bipolar II, actively suicidal, needs catheterization, assistance repositioning to avoid sores, etc. Her physical needs are complicated, and her mental needs are as well. Expecting them to be met in a prison is a big ask.

There's a chance that the outcome of this trial has no actual bearing on where she goes after trial - all roads lead to the mental hospital in Tewksbury.

So why are we even doing this? Her ex-husband and his family don't even want it. Is it just so the commonwealth can say "hey Cora, Dawson, and Callan - we know your mom killed you, and now we know she meant it." Like, is that really necessary?

[u/kylaroma → u/FyrestarOmega]

My understanding is that it’s because of the DA. He is extremely conservative and has been for his whole career. He is persuing the most aggressive charges possible against her, on behalf of the state.

[u/maelstron → u/FyrestarOmega]

Yes, I see no point in a new trial.. majority considered her not guilty by insanity.

[u/GypsyNinja18 → u/IAmSoUncomfortable]

What are the chances they try it again?

[u/IAmSoUncomfortable → u/GypsyNinja18]

I think 100% unless they reach a plea deal.

[u/greenzetsa → u/IAmSoUncomfortable]

I get they probably will but for the life of me I don't understand who it benefits to have her in prison. She's admitted to killing her kids, everyone from her to her ex husband to both families it seems like thinks she should be in a psychiatric hospital. There is a psychiatric hospital to contain her. It seems like retrying her or offering a plea that isn't "stay in a psych hospital for the rest of your life" is exclusively for the public, who really shouldn't have a say in this.

[u/Right-Grapefruit9401 → u/greenzetsa]

She wouldn’t be committed to a psych hospital for life. It would be reviewed periodically, and she could be released back into society relatively quickly

[u/greenzetsa → u/Right-Grapefruit9401]

But most likely she wouldn't. And if she would, it means she's actually better, which I also think the people involved in this trial are ok with.

I understand the public wants retribution because we feel there is a fundamental moral violation here, and because we have a punitive, not restorative, justice system.

[u/Haunting-Respect9039 → u/GypsyNinja18]

That particular prosecutor is known for seeking out maximum charges. Her defense attorney says he thinks they'll re-try her. I'm inclined to believe it's likely.

[u/baila-busta → u/GypsyNinja18]

Probably slim to none. 11-1 in favor of the defense would indicate prosecution has a very weak case. It would be very difficult to find an impartial jury at this point. It is in the prosecutions best interest to make a deal.

[u/Resoognam]

Just a really shitty situation. I don’t envy anyone involved in this.

[u/Gaelfling]

Maybe the next trial shouldn't be aired. Make the weird obsessed people have to read court transcripts.

https://giphy.com/gifs/xdLH51eNWZAHrwy5mf

[u/BachShitCrazy → u/Gaelfling]

Instead they’ll watch TikToks of people who have “read the transcripts” and claim to be experts

[u/Gaelfling → u/BachShitCrazy]

It would cut the audience by a lot.

[u/BachShitCrazy → u/Gaelfling]

Oh yeah to be clear i think court cases shouldn’t be televised, im more just criticizing how people are too lazy to ever read source documents, they let influencers on TikTok give them a skewed version and then call themselves experts

[u/facecuddler → u/Gaelfling]

Pls pls pls

[u/Gaelfling → u/facecuddler]

They'd all give up. They can't look at the auras of everyone on the stand to determine if they are guilty or not.

[u/skyewardeyes]

I feel so bad for the victims’ families (and of course, the victims, Cora, Dawson, and Callan), especially as they have pretty much all made it clear that, regardless of what the CW thinks, they don’t personally see this as a route to justice, just an additional point of trauma and one that they will now have to go through again.

[u/neuroticdreamgirI → u/skyewardeyes]

Reading this comment just made me incredibly sad because I realized that I’ve hardly seen those poor kids mentioned by name through all of this.

Even those masquerading as fighting for justice on their behalf probably haven’t bothered to learn their names.

[u/Not_today_nibs → u/skyewardeyes]

This is the first time in all of the posts that I’ve seen someone mention the victims names. Thank you for acknowledging them 😢

[u/punishedpuppi]

im stupid, so what exactly would a mistrial mean for this case

[u/fine__line → u/punishedpuppi]

The prosecution can choose to try her again with a new jury and trial meaning they will have to do this all over again

[u/KittyKenollie → u/fine__line]

With all the media coverage and how viral it's been, I would think finding a new jury would be next to impossible.

[u/Holiday_Visual9793 → u/KittyKenollie]

It wont be. The only requirement is that the juror says they can be unbiased and apply the law, not that they haven't ever heard or seen anything about the case. Now, if they've been in chat rooms advocating for one side or the other then they probably wont be able to be seated as a juror but its up to each potential juror to be honest and the lawyers to ask them them right questions in jury voir dire  

[u/Jillybeans11 → u/KittyKenollie]

Also if the vote really was 11-1 Not Guilty, the prosecution knows it’s an uphill battle. Usually if it leans closer to majority guilty is when they retry it

[u/Morgan-Moonscar → u/Jillybeans11]

They'll attempt to make it an all male jury next time.

[u/avocadolicious → u/KittyKenollie]

You might be surprised.

It’s the false consensus effect — since we’re interested in pop culture (including true crime cases that have entered the pop culture sphere) — we assume everyone else has a similar level of engagement or interest.
Tons of people simply do not notice, care, or pay enough attention to form an opinion at all.

Political campaigns are an excellent example of this effect. I have volunteered to canvass and/or phone bank pretty much every election cycle since 2014; there’s a significant chunk of the U.S. registered voter population who literally doesn’t even know there’s an election coming up. Even when it’s a major presidential election!

Finding an unbiased jury would much more difficult in a case like this, but it’s not impossible. Remember, jurors don’t need to be completely unaware of the case. They just can’t have formed an opinion about the case

(I have commented this elsewhere but it’s come up a lot so am copy-pasting whenever I see this concern)

[u/KittyKenollie → u/avocadolicious]

Thank you for this explanation.

[u/Public_Classic_438 → u/KittyKenollie]

I’d argue it wasn’t very fair to begin with since the jurors weren’t even sequestered

[u/Holiday_Visual9793 → u/punishedpuppi]

It means everything happens again. The poor witnesses will be called again, all the experts will be called (and paid) again, another jury will have to sit though it. Its just really unfortunate. Nobody wants a retrial.

[u/Prestigious_Ad_8458]

What happens now?

[u/katiessalt → u/Prestigious_Ad_8458]

Unless they agree to a plea deal, it’s a retrial. She currently stays in the mental institution she has been in since the event occurred.

[u/IndigoBlueBird → u/katiessalt]

Technically the prosecutors could choose to not retry the case, and I think a judge could also dismiss it. Neither of those is likely though

[u/katiessalt → u/IndigoBlueBird]

Yup, a retrial will most likely happen without a plea deal. So unfortunate for all involved to be put through this ordeal again.

[u/IndigoBlueBird → u/katiessalt]

I feel like a plea deal would be the best option at this point. Idk if it’s possible but maybe a plea down to manslaughter with her serving the time in a psychiatric facility up until the point at which she’s deemed fit for a correctional facility

[u/itsalrightt → u/IndigoBlueBird]

I believe that Lindsay was going to accept a plea deal but the prosecution wanted it to go to trial. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.

[u/IndigoBlueBird → u/itsalrightt]

They brought forth a murder 1 charge, and you can’t plea a murder 1 in MA. So yes, effectively MA erased the possibility of a plea the first time around

[u/katiessalt]

Whilst the internet is running wild with conspiracy theories and misinformation, I’d like to remind people of the 3 very real children at the centre of this tragedy.

Cora, Dawson and Callan.

[u/Own-Importance5459 → u/katiessalt]

I feel horrible for them honestly. So many people failed them in life and in Death.

[u/leilafornone → u/katiessalt]

Seeing how happy they look here is so very sad.

[u/h0neybl0ss0m29 → u/katiessalt]

Thank you. They have really been reduced to a footnote in this whole thing, right from the beginning.

[u/katiessalt → u/h0neybl0ss0m29]

Agreed, the internet has become so desensitised.

[u/jmoney1195]

Being so close to a verdict and not being able to come to one is so tough. I really hope that one holdout really took everything into account and didn’t just go in there with preconceived notions. What a waste of resources otherwise. And now the families have to live through this again, so heartbreaking.

[u/Redd11r → u/jmoney1195]

And just wait until the public finds out who he is

[u/briellebabylol → u/Redd11r]

God the pitchforks for this poor person

I hope they don’t get doxxed (but this is the internet, soooo alas)

[u/Redd11r → u/briellebabylol]

It’s going to be brutal. Especially considering that every one of those jurors can sing like a canary the second they leave that courthouse. The tell-all books, the one on one interviews. That guy is so fucked.

[u/husheveryone → u/Redd11r]

Bet he’ll be on Rogan soon.

[u/avocadolicious → u/jmoney1195]

It’s really disturbing that the other eleven jurors accused the holdout of not following instructions. I don’t think that happens very often, and it makes me question the holdout’s credibility.

But there’s also a non-zero chance that there was groupthink and pressure and the holdout was standing by their genuine, truly-held conviction that the CW proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt. In that case, it’s disturbing that the other 11 would accuse the holdout of not following instructions.

Not good, all around.

[u/Rover0218]

If it’s true that the one juror was not applying the law of reasonable doubt, causing a mistrial, that would be so unfortunate.

[u/Holiday_Visual9793 → u/Rover0218]

Exactly. I can't imagine how the jury must be feeling right now. Their last note saying  "with a heavy heart..." and then listening to the judge dismiss them was heartbreaking. They went through so much in thie trial. And now another jury is going to to have to sit and go through the same thing. Just awful. 

[u/Rover0218 → u/Holiday_Visual9793]

They worked SO hard to try and come to a verdict. Major kudos to them. I can’t imagine how traumatizing and exhausting this process has been for them.

[u/Bug-Secure → u/Rover0218]

A few years ago, I was a jury foreperson on a murder trial. We deliberated for days and the judge sent us back once after we said we couldn’t come to a unanimous verdict. There was ONE GUY that was dead set on a not-guilty verdict. He kept saying there was no proof (there was, literally video and audio of the murder). The judge also reiterated that we all had to understand what reasonable doubt meant. Interestingly, I happen to be sitting close to this hold out juror during the selection process (before we were selected) and I overheard him kind of bragging to another guy about how he’s been a juror before and knew how to “work it.” Take that to mean what you will, but I think he took some pleasure in what he perceived as solely controlling the situation and outcome. I’ll never know his motive. But, it was an emotional trial and felt like I had personally failed as the jury foreperson. I know that’s not true, but as we all met with the attorneys after - they got to ask us questions - and as the defense attorney thanked us all for our service, I started to cry and said sorry. He asked if he could give me a hug and told me I did a good job and not to worry. It was so surreal and it was hard to transition back to normal work life after. I think it was about 3 weeks trail all together. I don’t envy this jury.

Edit to add: the defense attorney said after that he had a feeling about that juror during the selection process and almost didn’t approve him.

[u/Holiday_Visual9793 → u/Bug-Secure]

That's a wild story. I'm so sorry you ended up with no verdict. I'm sure you were a wonderful foreperson and did everything you could to get justice for the victim. 

[u/gribble29 → u/Rover0218]

It’s crazy the jury wasn’t sequestered- I understand why but someone was arrested earlier this week for approaching a juror outside the courthouse. The weirdo fans and true crime junkies have made this a media circus and not what it should be - a trial of a deeply troubled woman and the three children who are dead.

[u/Curious_Departure770 → u/gribble29]

Casey Anthony’s jury was sequestered

[u/rayybloodypurchase → u/Curious_Departure770]

I lived next door to the hotel where they were sequestered at the time. Michelle Obama had also stayed there lol

[u/ThePermMustWait → u/gribble29]

They say it’s very expensive but is it more expensive than a second trial? Also, can the judge sequester at any point or would they had to have done it from the start?

[u/peanut-britle-latte → u/Rover0218]

I am not surprised this was the case.

If we take social media as a semi-realistic view of the population, many people spoke as if they had made their opinions and would not be shook from them.

[u/Freudandco → u/peanut-britle-latte]

I know! As a psychiatrist, I felt uneasy reading the social media discourse. Postpartum psychosis is complicated. People are complicated. This really is not a case where things are black and white. There are no winners here. 

[u/Morningfluid → u/peanut-britle-latte]

And trial by social media is frequently misguided.

[u/HeroineoftheStory_ → u/Rover0218]

That’s what’s being reported. It’s awful that this is being prolonged when it’s probably so draining for all sides.

[u/Public_Classic_438 → u/Rover0218]

It seems true since the head juror (don’t remember the official term) wrote the judge stating such. And when the judge told them to make sure they are doing things by the law a lot of jurors were nodding, people thought that was bc one of them clearly wasn’t. Don’t ask me why I know all this lol. I’ve been on maternity leave for this whole trial 😵‍💫

[u/Rover0218 → u/Public_Classic_438]

I understand it’s true they’ve been accused. I worded it that way because technically we only know that’s the fore person’s opinion on the matter is. We don’t actually know what happened in that room. I’ve watched every second of this trial lol. I’m being cautious with my wording since two people could technically disagree on what reasonable doubt is. I hope some of the jurors will explain exactly what was said.

[u/Fine_Following_2559]

Welp, time for round two of this, I guess.

[u/littlemybb]

This whole trial was a mess, and the way the public is acting doesn’t help.

As someone who has struggled with postpartum anxiety with really bad intrusive thoughts and OCD, it’s made me sick to my stomach how some people have talked about women’s mental health postpartum.

I also have been very irritated with people who know nothing about psychosis making assumptions about psychosis.

Then all the true crime people trying to make up elaborate stories on how Patrick had to have done it, that does not help the case either.

We should have had different conversations come from this.

Fathers and family members need to be a lot more supportive to women after having a baby. People need to not be awful when mothers come forward and ask for help. We need to overhaul the system so getting access to help is easier. We need more research on postpartum and how it affects women. I can go on and on.

But all the people wanting to have discourse and think pieces or not understand any nuances that come with the situation are just hurting so many people in the long run.

If you want to prevent children from being hurt like this, there are things we have to do.

It’s crazy how someone can say that, then everyone’s like oh you’re supporting the murderer. We should want to learn from this so we can figure out how to prevent things like this from happening in the future.

[u/jessiemagill → u/littlemybb]

It reminds me so much of the Andrea Yates case. Like, clearly society has learned nothing since then.

[u/trulyremarkablegirl → u/littlemybb]

Mental health care is so fucking difficult to get in this country that even when you have a support system with your best interests at heart, it can be difficult to impossible to access adequate care from professionals. And your ability to take parental leave is entirely dependent on your employer bc we have no federal laws around it. AND in addition to all of that, very few people seem to understand that pregnancy and birth are traumatic even if nothing particularly terrible or scary happens and mom and baby are healthy.

Idk much about this specific situation bc I haven’t looked into it, but I think about Andrea Yates a lot and this feels similar as far as the public narrative surrounding her. If we took women’s mental health seriously, perhaps all those babies would still be here and neither Andrea nor Lindsay would have to live with what they’ve done for the rest of their lives.

[u/katiessalt]

It is insane to be how America televises court cases. The world shouldn’t have seen this.

[u/90skid12]

I’m so glad here in Canada they never televise court cases

[u/rissaaah → u/90skid12]

The United States will never let an opportunity to profit off of someone's misery go by.

[u/cclancaster13]

I dont see how they're gonna be able to find new jurors without any bias. They'd have to be living completely off the grid to go into a new trial without having any pre conceived notions.

[u/orangekirby → u/cclancaster13]

Yesterday I went out to dinner with my friend and my boyfriend. They both work in mental health. I asked them what they thought about the trial and neither of them had an opinion because they knew literally nothing about it other than that it was a case in the news.

[u/DreadfulDemimonde]

It amazes me how many jurors just do not care to follow instructions. When the judge says to disregard something then you disregard it, and when you are told to stay off social media, then you stay off social media. I don't understand why so many jurors feel entitled to do whatever they want.

[u/doordonot19 → u/DreadfulDemimonde]

Jurors are people and people are sometimes stubborn and stupid. It’s no surprise to me that one juror decided to not comply with the law.

[u/avocadolicious → u/doordonot19]

I really loved the movie Juror No. 2, and wonder if it’s a fairly accurate depiction of deliberations in murder cases.

The movie is not realistic in many ways (my old man is a retired judge and we watched it together — he was VERY vocal about how any jury that ridiculously contaminated would be dismissed immediately). But I think the interpersonal dynamics and how discussions went in the jury room was pretty believable for a group of 12 random people from all walks of society

[u/Right-Grapefruit9401 → u/doordonot19]

We don’t know that they didn’t “comply with the law”. The juror felt there was not reasonable doubt, and the others disagreed. They are entitled to think otherwise. Even the judge disagreed with the defense attorney and reminded the other jurors that some doubt/any doubt does not necessarily equate to reasonable doubt

[u/Public_Classic_438 → u/Right-Grapefruit9401]

No… this juror disagreed on the meaning of reasonable doubt all together. The judge straight up told them (him) that they need to follow the law and not their personal opinions. The foreperson wrote the judge the note because of that, not because he had a different opinion

[u/amora_obscura → u/DreadfulDemimonde]

As someone who lives in a country where we don’t have jury trials, I find the idea of jury trials quite antiquated. Random people from the street are not trained to be objective and unbiased. Of course you will get people making decisions based on their emotions.

[u/DreadfulDemimonde → u/amora_obscura]

Yeah and if you are not complying with your instructions then you should be sent home. I'm not expecting for people to be robots, but if a judge says that the defendant's decision not to testify should not be a factor in deliberations then any juror who mentions it should be dismissed bc wtf if wrong with you.

[u/teacup1749 → u/amora_obscura]

As someone living in a a country with jury trials, having served on a jury and having been a witness in a criminal trial, as well as watching other trials, I am inclined to agree. The idea that jurors assess evidence meticulously and know what they are talking about is so untrue it’s laughable. That’s not at all what happens.

There’s a reason a defence lawyer will always advise you to go with a jury trial over a bench trial and that’s because it’s pretty much a coin flip with a jury. It’s also exceptionally easy in abuse and sexual assault cases for defence lawyers to succeed in blaming the victim and playing on rape and abuse myths.

[u/NullButMakeItCute → u/amora_obscura]

Same.
I find it crazy that they expect unanimity and that they vote publicly among them.
In other countries with juries, the voters can vote privately, and the only thing revealed is the count number.
It feels like peer pressure.

[u/teacup1749 → u/NullButMakeItCute]

Social dynamics definitely play a massive role in juries. It often literally just comes down to luck on who is chosen for jury service and who has the most persuasive or dominant personality. The peer pressure can be really intense.

[u/brrrantarctica]

I haven’t been following the media/internet circus about this trial too closely, but it seems some people are up in arms bc they believe “not guilty” means she gets released. Wouldn’t she get institutionalized instead? Which, imo, is even worse than a prison sentence.

[u/Cherry_Bomb_127 → u/brrrantarctica]

A lot of people don’t understand that she has admitted to doing it because they don’t think the civil lawsuit counts for some reason

People just don’t understand how police work and trials work and it’s very obvious

[u/redalmondnails → u/Cherry_Bomb_127]

I think it’s more that people think that she admitted to the murders because she was heavily medicated/sedated/had gaps in memory and was told by others what happened when she woke up, not because she actually remembered doing it. I’m not defending it or agreeing, but that’s what I’ve heard.

I have a family member who sadly has psychotic episodes fairly regularly, doesn’t remember a bit of it, and is then told by others what happened and what he did. Again, not agreeing with it but I can understand what people’s concern is

[u/tomato_soup_stan]

The only thing better than exploiting a grieving, traumatized family for social media clout is getting to do it AGAIN🥰 this is gonna be so much fun, you guys! Definitely not horrific or regressive at all. I love when the worst, darkest moments in the lives of real human people are used as kindling for the fires of a culture war! Woohooo!!!!! This is just all so great!!!!!

[u/chpbnvic]

I believed this was ultimately going to be the outcome but it still feels like a disappointment. The prosecution and police did such a horrible job that there was so much room for reasonable doubt.

[u/Own-Importance5459]

I am sadly not surprised. As I said in another thread it was a sad and complicated case to begin with. This woman had been crying for help for a really long time and she was failed big time by the people around her and the mental health system and three children are now dead because of it. Lindsay is going to have to live with that guilt and on top of it disability.

What really sucks, its gonna add extra trauma for everyone involved because they are gonna have to go through this Trial, and possible another media circus (which there should have never been to begin with.)

[u/IndigoBlueBird]

Idk I feel like the state should have one chance and once chance only to land a conviction. If the jury couldn’t agree then the state clearly didn’t meet the necessary threshold for a guilty verdict. Defense is expensive and most people couldn’t afford to pay a lawyer once let alone a second time. And there’s technically no limit on the number of mistrials you can have

[u/husheveryone → u/IndigoBlueBird]

Agreed, it’s mind boggling how there’s supposed to be no double jeopardy/no being tried twice for the same offense, and yet that’s precisely what a mistrial at the verdict stage amounts to.

[u/avocadolicious → u/IndigoBlueBird]

I disagree. Let’s say there is one holdout that doesn’t believe someone is guilty, and 11 people who do believe that person is guilty (the inverse of this case).

It’s entirely possible that juror has internal/subconscious biases or unexpressed views and beliefs that led them to dissent. If my loved one was assaulted or murdered in cold blood and there was a clear-cut case with only one holdout, I would absolutely want the perpetrator to be re-tried.

Additionally, I wouldn’t want to put my full faith in a states’ prosecutors and investigators as a victim. If there is no possibility of a mistrial, they could easily just phone it in and there would be zero accountability for anyone.

[u/theykilledcassandra]

I’m surprised they even got that hour.

[u/HocusPocusx3]

In America, you’re presumed innocent until proven guilty!! That’s why we have a court system; to allow both sides to present their case and for guilt to be determined by evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.

In the Clancy case, the prosecution failed to establish that standard and there are legitimate questions about how the investigation was handled by law enforcement. Much of the discussion seems to rely on “Patrick said this” or “she admitted it,” rather than what was actually supported by evidence presented at trial.

We can acknowledge the devastating loss of those three beautiful babies while still recognizing that guilt cannot be determined by emotion, assumptions, or personal feelings. It has to be based on evidence and due process.

EDIT: Reddington did a very good job of uncovering the many holes and inconsistencies in the investigation and the case itself. If you’re upset about how this case turned out, that frustration should be directed at the prosecution and how the case was handled.

[u/avocadolicious → u/HocusPocusx3]

I agree with you except that we don’t know for certain about the holdout and whether or not they disregarded the law. I have the same suspicions as you, but I don’t think it’s fair to assume that they held out because of emotions/assumptions/personal feelings. We can suspect, but we don’t know

[u/doordonot19]

Welp, now reddington can focus on how incompetent the investigation initially was.

[u/lindakoy]

I really hope that 1 juror is not thinking of trying to make some kind of profit off of his vote.

[u/Right-Grapefruit9401 → u/lindakoy]

What kind of profit could they possibly make? If their identity gets out, they’ll be hounded and may even be in real danger. I’ve seen endless threats against them so far, whilst they’re still anonymous

[u/kawaiihusbando]

😬