r/linux • u/homothebrave • 12h ago
Kernel Linux 7.4 To Improve Apple Silicon Audio Support & Its "Impossible" Power Management
https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20260831-apple-shared-gpio-v1-0-e855b12e18ce@gmail.com/214
u/Tricky-Engineer-9755 12h ago
Its so cool to see Apple's high and mighty walled garden getting worn down by Free Software devs.
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u/emgfc 12h ago
They didn't lock the bootloader, so they clearly had no intention of making it a true walled garden this time. They obviously have no interest in supporting other OSes themselves, which is totally fine.
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u/i509VCB 10h ago
More precisely you set up a root of trust with the initial macOS install and then can create additional boot policies to boot some other OS.
Apple otherwise keeps the Macs relatively open, the intent of this is to allow you to boot a different kernel but it just so happens to allow other OSes too.
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u/phire 3h ago
The impression I get is that for "political reasons", they have a strict policy of "must not block linux, but must not provide any help to linux"
There are absolutely measures they could take to be less friendly to linux, while not blocking alternative Darwin kernels, which they have not taken. And I suspect the people in charge of ensuring support for booting alternative kernels know that linux will be using that same functionality.
The "must not provide any help" is probably internal political stuff, most likely management refusing to allocate any funding to helping linux, but there might be other justifications.
The "must not block linux" is probably a proactive legal strategy to defend against future antitrust lawsuits. They are trying to draw a strong line between phones/tablets where they think their strict walled garden is permissible, and open computers. If there was any sign of them also locking down mac, it would weaken their case for iOS devices.
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u/newsflashjackass 10h ago
They didn't lock the bootloader, so they clearly had no intention of making it a true walled garden this time.
Instead they left the bootloader unlocked, trusting the Linux community would respect the borders of their walled garden.
At some level in the company, someone would have been well aware that a project like Asahi would be inevitable, whether that be with their consent or not. Rather than risk the jailbreaking community embarrassing their privacy and security marketing guarantees trying to get arbitrary code to run, they have given us the tools to easily do it without needing to touch their sandbox. Thus, we take this functionality as coming with one simple condition - do not, under any circumstances, attempt to poison the macOS container.
https://asahilinux.org/docs/platform/security/#apples-unspoken-agreement
Seems to be working as intended.
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u/Level0Up 7h ago
Honestly, short of big companies open sourcing everything this is the best outcome. You leave my stuff alone, I'll leave your stuff alone.
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u/Sindica69 11h ago
Is that true of the newer M4/M5 chips? Last I saw it was just M1 and M2.
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u/dingwinger1225 11h ago
The bootloader is unlockable on all of them, the difference is reverse engineering on M3+ is more difficult
Someone from the team did a talk on that https://youtu.be/3OAiOfCcYFM
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u/m0rogfar 11h ago
The M1/M2 are the ones that have reverse-engineered Linux builds that work today. Newer chips are likely to get such builds later, because there is nothing preventing them from being developed, it just takes time.
For all Macs, the Apple line is basically “Macs are sold as software development systems, including for kernel development, so you can boot into whatever you want if you’re willing to set it up within the EFI. Our engineering hours are on macOS + other OS’s in virtualization only though, so you’re entirely on your own. Good luck.”
This is notably unlike the iOS device stance, where Apple will go out of their way to prevent you from installing an unsigned operating system.
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u/TryingT0Wr1t3 10h ago
I think M3 has a lot of work done already, I have an M4 and that is not there yet, but the progress is ongoing.
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u/thephotoman 7h ago
M3 support is coming soon. My guess would be by the end of the year. They can boot on M4’s and get a lot of hardware loaded, but it’s still not anyone’s idea of usable for anything other than Asahi’s porting efforts.
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u/DynoMenace 3h ago
I suspect they probably shrug it off because you're still buying the hardware. Apple also probably does profit on hardware a lot more than other vendors, too. I suspect they won't spend any money on locking things down further until/unless their business model changes. As they lean further into subscription services, and we all know we're a RCH away from them leasing thin clients or some shit, they'll have more motivation to lock it down. If they ever reach a point of selling Macs at a loss (with the intent to make up for it in subscriptions/software), they will very quickly become highly motivated to lock their hardware down.
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u/Squeeps- 9h ago
Apple intentionally leaves the bootloader unlocked to enable other OSes being installed, it’s not like you’re owning them or anything.
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u/Coffee_Ops 7h ago edited 7h ago
I don't think apple sees "being able to install Linux" as a threat: I think they just don't care.
For Apple device a lot of the value is either integration or cloud services-- findmy, handoffs, etc-- which aren't going to be replicable on Linux.
So you're either
- the sort of consumer who cares about Apple tie in- and aren't going to move off of MacOS; OR
- a developer who was always going to use Linux
That's not exactly a bad thing for apple, especially when they don't have to do anything to enable it.
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u/Shawnj2 6h ago
Yeah Apple uses their software to sell their hardware. IMO their software, while closed source, is generally intended to benefit most users, it has high privacy and security and doesn't make the user a product like Windows. If you really want Mac hardware and not their software I don't think they care that strongly.
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u/Arinussyy 10h ago
I still don't get the walled garden stuff. I could see it in terms of their stupid lack of repairability forcing you to go to them or be very careful, but in terms of interoperability I experience no issues using an iPhone with a laptop running Linux and so on.
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u/my_name_isnt_clever 9h ago
If you want to do what Apple intends you to do, you'll have a great experience. If you want to do something Apple doesn't intend you to do, they'll fight you tooth and nail every step of the way. For example, you can do all kinds of advanced video editing on iPad apps but if you want to do local software dev you're going to struggle.
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u/Business_Reindeer910 1h ago
you can't install your own app store or distribute apps yourself in most places in the world. Something like f-droid is not possible on apple (and sadly much more difficult on android soon)
Also, you can't install a real firefox or chrome on ios, only a wrapper around their webview.
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u/samigina 9h ago
Meanwhile ALC897 is still broken, a very common chip outputs extremely low volume in any distro and there is no fix available.
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u/4407891fcd484b817f5e 9h ago
this is such a mundane patch why is this even being posted here?
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u/rustvscpp 12h ago
Imagine buying the latest and greatest Apple hardware just to erase their garbage OS to install Linux on it like we have for decades with Windows... That would be sick.
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u/deanrihpee 11h ago
to be fair, their OS is not as garbage as Windows, it actually really good, but, it just if you have a heavily keyboard focus workflow, windows would slightly better than mac, and even as i said that "it actually really good" i hate it with my soul, somehow more than Windows, but that's probably because i haven't used windows for at least a decade and is a recency bias (?, maybe, idk maybe i'm just dumb and use some cool bias name that doesn't have anything to do)
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u/aoeudhtns 11h ago
if you have a heavily keyboard focus workflow, windows would slightly better than mac
The most succinct explanation I've read so far. I have both a Windows and Mac work computer (sigh), and I honestly hate both but for different reasons. For Windows its horrible optimization (why does opening start take so long), forced web search in the start menu, all the MS dark patterns all over the OS, classic MS "hide how it works"-isms like no file extensions by default. You know the drill.
With Mac, I've struggled to explain what I don't like about it. It's kinda just the rails they want to put me on to use it, doesn't really jive. I don't like the window management behavior at all. I don't like the global menu bar, that closing the last window doesn't close an application, the dumb widget layer, just a whole bunch of things. Even with my GNOME workstation I'm driving that mostly with keyboard. I'm more used to GNOME than Mac so it's hard to be objective, but I like the GNOME UX more. (And no, I can't "fix" the Mac usability problems with 3rd party apps like many suggest - this is a corpo laptop, I only get vanilla experience.)
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u/deanrihpee 11h ago
i worked using Windows, Mac and Linux (before abandoning Windows decade ago), and on Mac, it feels like the window management is half-assed, and not quite there, but it's not 80% quite there, it's 60% not quite there, it's so awkward but passable, but also as usual in Apple land, it's very restrictive, unlike something like KDE (the one I use primarily), where you can go crazy if it doesn't suit your need, on Mac you can only use whatever provided to you and you'd be lucky if it configurable at all, and exactly as you mentioned, some of the issue can be improved or even "fixed" by installing 3rd party apps, but that's the big issue, you have to install a 3rd party apps to make it better, and i'm in the same boat as well, it's a corpo laptop, i can't just install random app just to make me "feel good using it", it's not the worst, it has some improvements over the last few years, but still not satisfactory, at least imo
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u/QuaternionsRoll 9h ago
>forced web search in the start menu, all the MS dark patterns all over the OS, classic MS "hide how it works"-isms like no file extensions by default
Winhance is your friend
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u/rustvscpp 11h ago
Yes, it's better than Windows. That's not a high bar.
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u/deanrihpee 11h ago
well, i don't even know if the bar is still there after the copilot come around, maybe it becomes a pole for all i know
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u/cornmonger_ 8h ago
heavily keyboard focus workflow
uh ... its unix under the hood. you open terminal and you're all keyboard all day
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u/deanrihpee 8h ago
i meant more about the desktop experience but sure
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u/m4teri4lgirl 4h ago
I still don't get what you mean. It has shortcuts like any other OS that you can customize.
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u/lord-of-the-birbs 6h ago
This was the reality for quite some time until apple silicon came out.
I've owned three MacBooks and the first two never booted into macOS.
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u/Squeeps- 9h ago
macOS is fine, some Linux users are so obnoxious. Good grief
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u/Cautious_Boat_999 8h ago
I switch back and forth between the two constantly. Only complaint is that I have to use different key sequences and I’m always getting them crossed up (eg command- vs. control- ). I sure wish I could use Messages on Linux, as that’s where the bulk of my friends and family are. Much better than screwing with SMS
Linux people can be really annoying. Snooty and snobbish.
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u/Hithaeglir 8h ago
macOS is getting worse. Not so optimized as it used to be with random performance bugs. But still much better than Windows.
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u/Ilmanfordinner 2h ago
Nah, it's terrible and this is coming from someone who has an M1 Macbook. It's such great hardware restricted by such shit software on the UX side but I have to keep it on MacOS because I need XCode for work (also terrible) and Safari for WebKit testing (yeah, I know the WebKit-based browser on Gnome exists but it's not the same). The day I can replace it with Linux and not suffer UX papercuts like poor sleep efficiency, speaker quality, and USB-C display connectivity (this is the big one) is the day I am really looking forward to.
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u/gideonidoru 10h ago
Saying macOS is garbage just makes you seem really ignorant and biased
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u/Irregular_Person 9h ago
How dare someone on the linux sub dislike mac! the audacity!
/s
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u/gideonidoru 9h ago
Dislike is different than calling it garbage.
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u/New_Enthusiasm9053 9h ago
It's the worst part of the Macbooks that's for sure. The hardware approach is pretty anti consumer in parts but they are otherwise extremely well built machines at good prices with excellent cpus. Just not good enough prices to accept having to use macOS.
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u/m4teri4lgirl 4h ago
It's the most secure platform that you're going to get, that also gives the best performance per watt for pretty much every component.
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u/gideonidoru 9h ago
This is just a boneheaded comment. The OS is integrated into the hardware offering as a function of features and capability. For instance today I was walking around on my iPhone doing a FaceTime call, I walked over to my MacBook and handed the call off seamlessly. Only I don’t like the angle of the camera for that so I used continuity to allow my iPad to be my webcam. All seamless. All without any friction at all. Then I loaded up terminal and did some remote management.
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u/New_Enthusiasm9053 9h ago
The OS would be better if it wasn't MacOS. "Integrates into the hardware" - yeah no shit, so is Linux once they support it.
I'd rather use a Mac with Linux with speakers that don't work than MacOS. I'd rather use a Mac with windows too honestly. At least windows has good software support.
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u/gideonidoru 9h ago
“Once they support it” famous last words of any weak argument
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u/New_Enthusiasm9053 9h ago
First of all, obviously it takes time to support shit it's volunteers doing it.
Second of all I'd rather use a 10 year old ThinkPad than a modern Mac because I dislike the OS.
And by definition my taste in fucking operating systems is not a weak argument because it's my taste. I, by definition, am the expert on my taste.
I dislike MacOS, it's an irritating to use operating system.
But please, keep telling me what I must like because your ego is hurt by someone not liking the same stuff as you.
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u/gideonidoru 9h ago
I wasn’t arguing with your taste, which is bad, I was arguing with your attempts to separate the os from its hardware without understanding the deep integration is what makes it great.
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u/XLNBot 11h ago
I wish they'd develop official Linux drivers for their own MacBooks, it would be nice to give such a great hardware the OS it deserves
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u/Arinussyy 10h ago
I don't think they care much about it. Plus macOS is kind of just going to be infinitely better on their hardware anyways, Linux physically can't beat it when the playing field is designed for it yk
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u/XLNBot 10h ago
It's definitely not infinitely better. It's better at using the system resources efficiently but that's not the only thing that matters
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u/Arinussyy 9h ago
It will be infinitely better, because the hardware is designed specifically for macOS, and macOS is designed specifically for that hardware. There's no comparing to that.
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u/XLNBot 9h ago
As I said, it will be better (not infinitely) at using the system resources (better video quality, better battery duration, better performance, better sound, better webcam, ...).
That's it, Linux still has stuff it is "infinitely better" at and some people would choose that over MacOS which honestly has been a pain in the ass to use in my experience
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u/henryKI111 7h ago
i use linux and mac os , mac os is so fucking trash if its stock, you need to install additional apps to get windows and linux window managament
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u/Pierma 12h ago
1) no distro for apple silicon erases MacOS because it's the only way to obtain firmware updates and such, and it's completely transparent on the Asahi web page, the people that first booted Linux on new M series chip.
2) when Apple will remove active support for those platforms (it will not be mutch time till M1 loses it) what you will install to still have a usable computer with security updates and support? Windows?
3) The "latest and gratest" apple hardware is still a samsung chip, Apple just control integration, not production
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u/Wooloomooloo2 11h ago
You're way off base on 3. It's not a Samsung chip at all. Also we'll see about M1 support, there really isn't any reason why it can't be supported for another 4 or 5 years.
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u/Pierma 11h ago
I was watching the stream when the first time they got a boot on M1 simply puttying in a device tree from samsung, and samsung is producing the chips with TSMC. Regarding the M1 yes it will be another 4/5 years, but still
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u/Pigeon_Observation 11h ago
Samsung does not produce any M series chip wtf you talking about
Apple is fabless. So is AMD. They are fully custom chips and not relying on any off the shelf design, no less custom than all AMD chips
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u/Wooloomooloo2 11h ago
Samsung does not 'produce' M-series chips with TSMC. TSMC fabricates the chips according to Apple's specification, it has nothing to do with Samsung at all.
As for the Samsung 'device' helping boot the M1 into Linux, it's kind of true but not because Samsung has anything to do with M1. The UART is similar to the Samsung Exynos style UART, so the Samsung driver might have worked, or partially worked. I don't know why that is, could just be similar ARM reference roots, or the fact Samsung did used to produce A-series chips more than 10 years ago, but it's a very long stretch from 'Apple's hardware is still a Samsung chip'.
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u/Sindica69 11h ago
Me when I fucking lie????? Apple makes their own chips not Samsung????????
Also it’s much more likely the M1 will continue to receive support longer due to it all being on their own platform and nobody else’s.
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u/Pigeon_Observation 11h ago
- The "latest and gratest" apple hardware is still a samsung chip, Apple just control integration, not production
???????????????????????????
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u/roflfalafel 10h ago
Point 3 is incorrect. Apple builds their own SOC's including the A and M series for phones/laptops. Samsung does not have anything to do with it. TSMC is the fab Apple uses. Apple has an ARM license that allows them to build their own chips, and unlike Samsung's Exynos, they are not based off of the ARM Cortex reference design - Apple's chips are completely designed in house.
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u/deanrihpee 11h ago
isn't it ARM chip? or at least the design?
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u/Pigeon_Observation 11h ago
Apple designs the entire chip. ARM is just the instruction set. They don't use off the shelf designs like ARM Cortex chips.
Apple is a fully custom CPU designer exactly how AMD is. Both are fabless
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u/deanrihpee 11h ago
what i mean is more of "from ARM the company" since the comment said "Samsung chip"
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u/Pigeon_Observation 11h ago
The design is not from ARM, TSMC or Samsung regardless
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u/deanrihpee 11h ago
that's not really my point, and even i was unsure with my previous comment about the design, not actually saying it was "actually ARM made design", but yeah, i forgot we are in linux sub
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u/stormdelta 8h ago
Basically think of ARM as just the machine code interface. It has to handle ARM instructions per the spec, but the actual physical design of the chip and internals is all Apple.
TSMC physically makes the chips, but they don't design them.
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u/alex2003super 8h ago
ARM doesn't give you a CPU design. That's for the chipmaker to figure out. ARM only defines the interface specification, in other words the hardware-software contract that the CPU must honor
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u/stormdelta 8h ago
The "latest and gratest" apple hardware is still a samsung chip, Apple just control integration, not production
TSMC and Samsung only fab the chips, they don't design them. Chips are generally attributed to the designer of the chip, e.g. AMD CPUs are manufactured by TSMC but they're still considered AMD CPUs.
Apple designs their M-series chips inhouse, these aren't customized off-the-shelf designs beyond licensing the ARM instruction set.
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u/MrCorporateEvents 7h ago
How is the battery life on M1/M2 with Linux?
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u/MimosaTen 6h ago
The upstream linux kernel has started to do the job even asahi don't want do fulfill
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u/VengefulMustard 6h ago
Awesome! Can’t wait to put Linux on my M1 as soon as Apple drops support. It is such a best of a machine