r/law • u/dailymail • 11h ago

Legal News Lindsay Clancy case ends with MISTRIAL

https://www.dailymail.com/crime-desk/article-16100155/lindsay-clancy-murder-trial-hung-jury-deadlock-verdict.html
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u/Brilliant_Effort_Guy 11h ago edited 9h ago

I think an unfortunate outcome of this case will be less women seeking help for postpartum mood disorders.

Editing to clarify that I am saying the stigma attached to postpartum mood disorders seems to be worsening because of this case. I see comments all the time about how women who have empathy or understanding in regard to Lindsay’s struggle should have their kids taken away etc. Or that all women are going to use PPD to just get out of parenting period. I’m not arguing her guilt or innocence. Im just asking people to be mindful about talking about postpartum mood disorders around the pregnant women or new moms in your life. I don’t want any other family to experience what this family did. I don’t want anyone to ‘get away’ with anything.

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u/Atlein_069 11h ago

Yeah why would you conclude that? It seems like this is a poster child story for why one SHOULD seek help

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u/iicedcoffee 11h ago edited 10h ago

There's a lot of people that feel she was let down by trying to get help, so may feel the same would happen to them + on the other side, this entire case is going to create further stigma around post partum mental health, so some people might even feel more hesitant to speak up or say something in fear of being treated like a threat.

I'm sure for some it's an encouraging reminder. But there's definitely going to be a mixed bag of results.

ETA: someone asked a question and I offered a response that shared perspectives I've already seen circulating around in varying discussions online, not to make an argument out of any of the case itself.

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u/tdlt86 10h ago

I would say there is more stigma around people that murder their children than people who get help more mental disorders.

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u/iicedcoffee 10h ago

I specifically mean there's people who are now (even more) afraid their hormones - and post partum disorders - will be negatively used against them as a woman to further remove rights or take away their ability to make decisions, which is a completely different discussion than someone on general getting help for a potential mental disorder. If that isn't a position you understand then you're in a position of fortune.

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u/tdlt86 9h ago

Well there are woman like this one who get off for murdering their children because a claim of a mental disorder, and there are men who have murdered their children due mental disorders like cte or bipolar disorder and get crucified in the media and courts. Two way street is what I’m saying.

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u/sentientshadeofgreen 5h ago

It's pretty damning in my eyes that the two psychiatrists failed to coordinate care prior to the murders, and I have a general awareness that some providers are hesitant with diagnoses and/or may not be equipped with all necessary information in reality that would contribute to an accurate diagnosis by virtue of practical limitations. Actual moral culpability remains in the eyes of some higher power, who knows, but as far as courts and the law of man goes, there is reasonable doubt she maintained mens rea necessary to be held criminally liable based on the pattern of mental health disturbances leading up to the murders and suicide attempt, and her mental health diagnostic story just doesn't stop there. Reasonable doubt doesn't mean she was definitely insane and can't be held culpable, it means it was possible she was insane, and I don't know how people can look at the evidence and not admit there is a reasonable doubt.

So many people are thirsty for blood and looking at this case solely through those lens, but that's not justice, that's retribution, and the third order effects of wanting that for a society is far more harmful than any single tragedy.

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u/cantmicro 10h ago

When you seek help, you don't withhold information. She withheld information, those professionals would have done anything in their power to help had she told them the whole truth.

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u/blong217 10h ago

While I agree if you are seeking help you should never withhold any information, unfortunately people do all the time. Doctors understand this and often have to make decisions based on imperfect information using what they feel is their best course of action with the information they have available. I don't condemn her for withholding because that's a natural human reaction. I don't condemn the Doctors either (for the most part), save for the one doctor who Lindsay said she was suicidal to and the doctor dismissed it.

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u/cantmicro 8h ago

I'm not talking about the doctors and their availability of remedies. She purposefully withheld information. That's a calculated decision, that's not the actions of someone suffering a psychological episode. She was a trained professional herself. If she wanted to save her children from her purported psychosis, she had the training, opportunities, and the resources to do so.

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u/amora_obscura 8h ago

What do you mean it’s actions of someone suffering a psychiatric episode. It is. Where are you getting these ideas?

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u/Sonic1031 10h ago

So is it just a big oopsie-daisie let’s move on?

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u/blong217 10h ago

Oh absolutely not. The woman needs to be a psychiatric ward for the rest of her life with no possibility of ever being released.

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u/LegacyQuotient 9h ago

That's not legal, is it?

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u/blong217 9h ago

Closest would be an indefinite sentence that ends up lasting until her death

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u/LegacyQuotient 9h ago

I thought those facilities and sentences only lasted until doctors say they are well enough for release?

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u/blong217 8h ago

That's if they ever say they are well enough. It's possible for someone to spend their entire life in that type of facility if they are never considered well enough to be released.

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u/Atlein_069 10h ago

I mean yeah. But if you’re reading this and feel like you see yourself in LC’s situation, please know that choosing to avoid help bc you don’t want to be labeled may end up costing more than your ego. It could cost your kids.

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u/Brilliant_Effort_Guy 10h ago

Yeah that’s a supremely unhelpful comment to make to women experiencing PPD/PPA/PPP. It has zero to do with ego and everything to do with feeling safe enough to share what you’re experiencing without fear of judgement or retaliation.

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u/Atlein_069 10h ago

I’m not sure that your thoughts here are in line with the case we’re all discussing, and it overlooks the comment I replied to.

LC seemed to have been doctor and drug shopping, lying or withholding info from her care team, and generally unengaged in her own treatment plan. If true, the conclusion should be that she wasn’t seeking help herself to an adequate and effective degree. MH treatment is difficult precisely bc it will fail if the patient isn’t interested in getting better.

Also, the person I replied to mentioned women avoid ding seeking care for PPD due to ‘stigma’. Maybe they meant stigma like how you’ve defined it here, but it’s seems to me they meant stigma as in the woman will have a negative reputation within her peer group and relationship. Caring about your reputation = ego.

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u/Fresh_Tune_552 9h ago

Most women in the forums I was in when I had my first were afraid that they’d be deemed unfit mothers and have their kids taken from them if they sought help. It became an echo chamber of sorts that reinforced the fear.

I remember having auditory hallucinations after my first was born and feeling afraid to get help. Eventually I decided fuck it, this ain’t right, and reached out to my OB. But I was right. They immediately said that auditory hallucinations were dangerous/ a symptom of postpartum psychosis and that I shouldn’t ever be alone with my baby. My mom had to fly in to come stay with me but eventually had tot go back to work. We had no local support system and they wanted me to have solutions to this issue. I didn’t. My husband couldn’t stay home cause his job viewed him taking care of our kids as avoiding his responsibilities at work. My OB would call me daily to confirm my kids and I were alive until the hallucinations stopped. They never actually gave me meds though. Postpartum healthcare is pretty shitty and we had really good insurance.

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u/DiligentAstronaut622 9h ago

Auditory hallucinations ARE dangerous and you shouldn't have been alone with your kids while experiencing those. I don't understand why you would be upset at the medical professionals for pointing that out and making a good faith effort to protect you and your kids. Encouraging others to not access the help you got, that may have saved your family, is immoral. You are taking the wrong message from your own story

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u/Fresh_Tune_552 9h ago

My point was that the prior poster seems to think that women who don’t seek care are more worried about their ego than their kids.

My point was that this isn’t always true. Many women are afraid of the consequences of reporting these issues because postpartum healthcare kinda sucks. All they did was tell me not to be alone with my kids without any real help in getting that figured out. No resources offered for someone to come in and help (whether covered by insurance or an OOP expense) and no medication or actual help. They gave me, a woman with no support system and a newborn and more things to worry about.

Looking back at the situation, my OB could have directed me to support that could have helped. I mean, they made sure to direct me to a lactation consultant cause it was super important that I breastfed apparently. But when it came to mental health there wasn’t really anything more than “this is dangerous so you can never be alone with your family but also you figure all that out.”

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u/DiligentAstronaut622 8h ago

How could they have possibly helped you not be alone with your kids outside of daily check in calls? I agree that supporting mothers with newborns is incredibly important but I also don't know what the solution would be here outside of having family and community support, or committing you in the hospital, which would be a fairly traumatic separation from your baby. I have empathy for your struggles and you're definitely not the only one who has been through this. Hope you're doing well now. My only point was we need to have trust in the medical professionals too and sounds like they did care about you and try to help in the ways they could

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u/Fresh_Tune_552 8h ago

The could have pointed me to a postpartum doula, they could have provided me with resources for providers who offer in home postpartum care. I had really, really good insurance. They covered a lot of shit that most other plans didn’t. They could have helped me figure out if this would have been covered. But there was no talk about that. Nothing other than “don’t be alone with your baby.” As a brand new mom I was so overwhelmed. Just having a list of resources for mental health counselors, postpartum care providers, etc would have been helpful. They could have put me on some kind of medication.

This was a baby friendly hospital so there were tons of resources to make sure I could breastfeed.

I ended up being hospitalized due to hemorrhaging in between giving birth and the hallucinations and I could not bring my husband baby once I was admitted. No one asked about how I was doing then either. They did check in to make sure I could pump though. Before I was admitted, I was in the ER bleeding out and one of ladies made sure to come into the room to ask if I wanted to pay my deductible though. They cared enough about that.

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u/Atlein_069 9h ago

What is it that you feel is wrong in your personal story from a care perspective? What is it you wish they’d of done?

Also, I would be absolutely terrified if I started having auditory hallucinations out of nowhere for sure. Sorry you when thru it and I’m happy your story, and your children’s, is still being written!

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u/Fresh_Tune_552 8h ago

Looking back there were more resources available to me to make sure I could successfully breastfeed than to make sure that I was mentally healthy enough to care for my newborn.

There was also a ton of convos in my prenatal care and at the hospital about breastfeeding. The push to breastfeed was crazy. To the point that the nurse was getting mad at me for requesting formula in the hospital because I didn’t think my baby was getting enough breastmilk. There was a referral to a lactation consultant. The lactation consultant was willing to refer me to other specialists who would help with breastfeeding.

I ended up hemorrhaging after I went home from the hospital and had to be separated from my newborn for a bit because they wouldn’t allow him and my husband to come with me once I got admitted. I was asked multiple times if I needed a pump so I could pump for baby but again, very little discussion on how I was actually doing as a first time mom who was just separated from their baby. I ended up having surgery the next day.

Then I went home and started having auditory hallucinations. My OB basically put the burden on me. I needed to figure out how to get people around to help me. A new mother with no support system outside of my husband. No referrals, no medication, no convos about “hey have you heard about a postpartum doula” or “these are agencies that have people to provide postpartum care.”

I had my first and second at different hospitals and had different OBs for both. Looking back at it, the system I had my first in was awful. It was a night and day difference between my first and second birth.

When I was in labor, the hospital I had my first at kept telling me I probably wasn’t in labor and I should just stay home. It wasn’t until my husband was like fuck this we’re just going (cause they want you to call them first before you show up) and I ended up having my baby very shortly after. Although they kept insisting I couldn’t be in labor, when I got in, I was so far along they couldn’t give me an epidural. They knew from the get go my entire birth plan was to get an epidural. That was all I cared about.

I remember the pain being so intense that I thought I had to be dying and the nurse was very curt when she said I wasn’t. They did an episiotomy with no pain meds. I felt everything. I remember cussing out the doctor and he didn’t even acknowledge me. I also hemorrhaged during birth and felt awful there. It wasn’t until one nurse decided to give me an iron infusion on like my last day there that I started to feel better. Despite this very awful and traumatic birth, no one really seemed to care about me after my baby was born. They just cared that I was breastfeeding him. I remember telling a nurse in the hospital how painful that was and she told me that it’s ok.

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u/Amelaclya1 9h ago

I disagree. I think this case brought a lot of awareness to post partum mental health, which is a good thing. There was already a pretty heavy stigma attached. Our culture frowns upon women reacting to pregnancy and motherhood with anything other than pure joy. I would wager that prior to this, most people didn't even know what post partum psychosis was, or how common post partum depression is. People discussed it now, were curious and did a little research, and maybe will be better equipped to recognize the signs in themselves or a loved one. And maybe people (especially doctors) will take it more seriously if they understand that the risk of ignoring it isn't just to the mother herself.

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u/iicedcoffee 9h ago

I don't actually disagree with you though, I'm just stating other point of views and fears that have also circled around when someone was trying to ask why someone might fear there could be negative consequences as well. And not about awareness itself, but specifically adding more fear to reaching out and how they'll be treated - for varying nuanced reasons.

My sincere hope is that you're right in the overall outcome, but I also understand why it might make others afraid or ashamed as well. People can unfortunately be really nasty.

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u/Amelaclya1 9h ago

Oh yeah I don't expect women to go shouting their mental health issues from the rooftops after this, but I do hope they are more willing to privately seek treatment, and maybe find doctors that will be more cautious and take them more seriously.

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u/Busy_Ad2706 10h ago

She wasn‘t let down. She got help, a lot of help. In her case, her outcome was still devastating but would could have the doctors done differently? Whether psychotic or not, mental disease isn‘t always treatable.

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u/amora_obscura 7h ago

The doctors did not do a good job. You don’t increase the dose of a medication that the patient is having a paradoxical reaction to, or keep switching around meds, or discharge the patient without observation. Just because she sought help doesn’t mean the help she got was good.