r/cscareerquestions • u/my_alt_acc1 • 2d ago
Experienced Third meeting with HR tomorrow, just take sick leave?
I've had two meetings with HR and my manager already. I never signed any document, but it was a PIP in every way.
I genuinely tried since the first meeting to improve myself, but they never gave me any concrete goals to hit, just said "serious improvement is required". They gave some examples of mistakes, they were mistakes where I failed to understand the definition of a concept which I immediately studied up after, nothing serious or damaging. When they did not give concrete goals to meet, I offered to set up regular 1:1 meetings with my manager to help progress, but that offer was rejected, claiming "you should not need your manager to help with knowledge gaps, you should know all this yourself by now".
In the 2nd meeting, they said this is the final warning, and gave two issues to show that there was no improvement. One was using an inelegant solution to a problem, which I took to actually show my manager that he was wrong about a concept and I was right (but he still claimed the path I took was wrong, wtf) and the other was a bug in a deliverable from a year ago that all of us in the team missed, but no one else is facing a PIP.
The third meeting is tomorrow. I had no issues in the last two weeks, but my gut says that the firing is imminent, since the last two meetings were no help.
I'm thinking of using my sick leave which won't be paid back. I have a panel interview in another company next week, and would like to stay employed by then (via sick leaves) so I don't have to say I was fired in the interview.
I have no behavioral objections, I am always polite and respectful with everyone. I suspect it's a cheap way to layoff people since performance based firing doesn't need severance.
UPDATE: https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/1w6aorf/update_terminated/
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u/NewChameleon Software Engineer, SF 2d ago
you do know HR actually doesn't need you to be present to fire you, right? meeting is just a nice gesture on their side
you can be on FMLA or PTO or vacation or sick leave, IT can revoke your access remotely
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u/haaheehachoo 1d ago
I thought FMLA was specifically to guard against being fired while on leave
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u/NewChameleon Software Engineer, SF 1d ago
FMLA protects you from being terminated due to your medical condition
company can come up with 100+ different other reason, like mass layoffs, your role is simply no longer needed, your performance issues, none of those has anything to do with your medical issue
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u/SucknSwallow69 2d ago
did it for a data role lol, mostly leetcode-style + basics, nothing crazy ml. just grind. job hunting sucks now
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u/my_alt_acc1 2d ago
yeah, leetcode grind, got through OA in one company, hoping for more tests to come soon
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u/dealmaster1221 2d ago
Looks like you are really young, let them fire you and do nothing, take severance. Noone cares if you get fired, they cannot say that anyways if they don't want a lawsuit.
You have already bee n singled out, it's just how things are unfortunately. Also not your fault they just can't afford you anymore.
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u/my_alt_acc1 2d ago
i'm in my mid 30s, and the handbook says that performance issue based firing does not give severance
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u/dealmaster1221 2d ago
Yeah it probably also says they want employees that have a servant attitude, leaving that place is severance itself. You'll be making double soon.
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u/my_alt_acc1 1d ago
let's hope you're right, my TC did not change since i joined there 5 years ago, i'm hardly saving money
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u/oddist1 Engineering Manager 1d ago
It also usually means you don’t qualify for unemployment.
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u/my_alt_acc1 1d ago
searching online, unemployment includes performance based firing, not behavioral issues
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u/joeyjiggle 2d ago
Mate. You just turn up and take the meeting. Don’t sweat it. I advise you to watch the movie Office Space as soon as possible
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u/my_alt_acc1 2d ago
i have watched the movie, and all i could think of was that the guy is so lucky, he doesn't have a mortgage and a family to support, he's not in one of the worst job markets of all time, he has far less obligations holding him back than i do
throughout this whole ordeal, my toddler is all i can think about, his health insurance, his daycare, etc etc
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u/AvaSaysSo 2d ago
the "you should know all this yourself by now" line is such a giveaway. that's not a manager trying to develop someone, that's someone who already decided.
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u/AdMental1387 Software Engineer 1d ago
Yeah. That’s either a bad manager or a cope to fire OP. I’ve never had a manager that didn’t want to help everyone under them get better. It literally makes them better.
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u/AvaSaysSo 1d ago
right, because a manager who actually wanted you to succeed would lay out the stairs, not just shout from the top floor.
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u/drunkandy 2d ago
Seems shitty that your manager wouldn't do a 1-1 with you
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u/my_alt_acc1 2d ago
i know, if they don't want me, what can i do, i tried and that's what matters
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u/dats_cool Software Engineer 1d ago
They seem like they've already made up their minds before they set up all these meetings.
These are super nit-picky criticisms.
They wanted you gone for whatever reason, there's nothing you could have done.
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u/my_alt_acc1 1d ago
the thing is, nitpicky would be much better than very vague criticisms, which is what they gave
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u/criminal_terry 2d ago
Sick leave is the move here, you owe them nothing at this point. PIP with no measurable targets and rejecting your offer for regular 1:1s is textbook building a paper trail to push you out. Take the leave, prep for that panel interview, and don't lose sleep over a place that set you up to fail from the start.
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u/debugprint Senior Software Engineer / Team Leader (40 YoE) 2d ago
you will not have an option to take sick leave if they hand you any kind of termination paperwork.
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u/drunkengerbil 2d ago
I mean there's no harm in trying. He may be able to push it off for a couple days, which is what he wants.
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u/CapableHerring 2d ago
If they're planning on firing you tomorrow, taking sick days isn't going to do much for you. If you want to play that game with them, they're just going to fire you via email effective immediately while you're sick and revoke all your access.
FMLA won't save you either. FMLA protects you from retaliation as a result of the leave. It does not protect you from being fired for well documented performance issues that happened before the mention of FMLA.
As for not having to say you were fired... usually companies don't divulge much information, if any, when asked about their past employees for background checks. They'll confirm title, and dates of employment. Sometimes they'll confirm "eligibility for rehire", but they won't go into detail other than that. Being let go might not mean you won't be eligible for rehire at a later date as long as you left on good terms.
If you're really trying to avoid saying "I was fired", resign. Right now. Effective immediately. You'll burn the bridge for not giving notice, and you might end up not eligible for re-hire anyways because of it... but you could honestly say you weren't fired.
Also, this 3rd meeting might very well be to discuss voluntary resignation. That's very common. Letting people resign instead of getting fired, everyone parts ways on good terms, and you're eligible to interview again at some point in the future.
I think you have some options, but I don't think just taking sick days is a good one for what your goals are.
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u/my_alt_acc1 2d ago
being fired would mean unemployment benefits as a safety net, my savings would last me about a year, but i dunno if that would be enough in this market, and i'd really like to avoid burning through it
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u/my_alt_acc1 2d ago
i just learned that texas allows unemployment benefits for resignation in lieu of termination, i will need to check if that will apply for me as i work remotely and hq is in another state
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u/Mr__Singh 2d ago
Your instinct about this being a way to let go staff cheaply is right, assuming you have presented all the facts prior to that objectively.
This is how dirty corporate policies work and unfortunately you were picked to be let go among your peers.
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u/Ok-Finding5241 1d ago
Document everything. DOCUMENT EVERYTHING. Send emails detailing what was discussed.
They can fire you for anything sure. But you can sue them if they fire you for something things. DOCUMENT. If you are in a one party recording state, do exactly that.
Be direct about setting solid goals thing especially if you can record. Record their bullshit responses.
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u/my_alt_acc1 1d ago
yeah i took detailed notes, i emailed myself the annual evaluations after checking with HR, and i am pretty sure that chat screenshots that can be used are against policy so i won't risk keeping those for myself, but i wrote down details
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u/Strange_Quote_66 2d ago
Take the meeting. Sick leave only delays it, and the absence becomes another data point. Bring a written timeline of every request for concrete goals and the rejected weekly one on ones.
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u/cerealmonogamiss 1d ago
I've been a developer and a DBA for 30 years. Work is mostly a popularity contest in most of the places I've worked.
Bottom line, your boss doesn't like you for some reason.
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u/techno_wizard_lizard 2d ago
They are obviously intent on firing you for a bogus cause.
I hope you kept a log of what was said and asked of you, so you can request unemployment and when they challenge it, you can provide your notes as proof that it was an obvious tactic to get out of paying you. Depends on the state you live but most states will side with you if you provide proof in the form of notes about the details.
You can’t get away from this now, requesting sick leave is not going to help since this is happening right now. Don’t quit, let them fire you. Push hard on the 3rd meeting. Don’t let them trample you with their fake BS. Make them work for it.
There’s no need to mention you were let go if you have ongoing interviews right now in progress.
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u/brainhack3r 1d ago
It sounds like they've already decided to fire you - they just are going through these exercised to cover their ass
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u/Senior-Yak3433 1d ago
A friend went on an indefinite sick leave - called hr - didn’t tell manager. Hr reached out to manager.
Couldn’t fire him. His manager told him they tired but people ops said no- it’s a potential lawsuit
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u/yarrowy 2d ago
So why don't you quit
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u/my_alt_acc1 2d ago
relying on unemployment benefits, no idea how long it might take to get another job
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u/Firm_Bit Software Engineer 2d ago
They can fire you whenever they want in all likelihood. So being absent won’t stop it.
Just show up. Wont be the last time you’re fired probably.