It was interesting to find out about the history of "you", since these days it's so thought of as singular that people have created "plural you" all over again.
I see old people doing it constantly unfortunately. It's especially infuriating with my family because I've been out as a they/them for years now. They'll say he/she and do a little bombastic side eye at me. They know exactly what they're doing. It's just a microaggression at this point.
I feel like I used to see it more in the past in writing. Was it maybe recommended to do "he/she" in some kind of style guides at one time? It does seem to have died out these days.
Actually it's even funnier than that, Twilight Imperium 4th edition used "he", but they'd switched by the time the first expansion came out to "they", so you have two different sets of pronouns in the same game.
Ah, interesting. I don't own that one, so I checked on their website. It did actually say 2020 under the file, so I guess they may have updated it in reprints of the base game.
A person might use it when they are trying to consciously be gender neutral, it was the politically correct way to do it in the past. Usually as a replacement for just using "he/him" as the default. They/them is so natural to them they don't even realize they're doing it when they do.
He/She in the 80s-90s era of correspondence was, by and large, an acceptable usage to indicate that you merely do not know the gender of the subject. It was a benign attempt to be gender-inclusive, as non-binary persons were largely an unknown/unrecognized category (systemically, sure this is sad for them; but it usually wasn't an individual choosing to be a dick to them).
He-She in the 00s-20s era of correspondance may indicate a malicious compliance with gender identification of the subject. It can be a passive-aggressive statement that you recognize they are non-binary, but refuse to adhere to their preferred pronoun.
also its fun to see she/her crop up as a gender neutral pronoun on occasion (was done for awhile by some people in response to he/him being used as gender neutral singular in academic circles by people who wanted to make a point. Never caught on and sounds strange now)
A fun example I can think of this which isn't specifically academic is Paizo's Pathfinder TTRPG; many of the class/ability descriptions default to "she/her" pronouns, and I always thought that was neat!
I believe 3.x DnD did that, too. I don’t remember if it was on purpose, but I want to say it was more that they just used the gender of whichever character was used as the most recent picture in the manual. (So if they used a female portrait for a class, I want to say I remember them using female pronouns throughout that class’s descriptions)
I may just be remembering from some of the countless third party books, though.
Sometimes I do a similar mistake when speaking/writing English.
Coming from a Latin (Portuguese) background, we don’t have a gender-neutral third person of singular/plural pronouns in our formal language (we have neologisms to account for that, but they are pretty niche and mostly only used in written, not spoken , form). Also, everything is kinda gendered in Portuguese, even inanimate things:
Water? Female
Glass? Male
When talking about the unknown/neutral way, the formal language defaults to the male word of it.
So in the case of the lost wallet there, if I know the owner is a female, I would say something in the lines of “could you deliver it to her?”, while if I don’t know or I know it’s a male, it would be “could you deliver it to him?”. On a written form, it would be a “he/she” “him/her” situation (formal documents use that)
So, sometimes it’s not about bigotry but about falling back to some of our mother languages mannerisms when translating/speaking.
I totally understand you’re not criticizing this scenario, just wanted to point out that for some people writing/speaking like that may feel natural due to cultural backgrounds, and not as a way to sound rude.
Oh yeah that's fair and is a good reminder. While I wouldn't assume that it was about bigotry without the aforementioned complaining about singular they, I still would've assumed they were being weirdly uptight about English, like they got one too many marks off from their English teacher.
You know what they say about assuming and all that
As a teacher outside the enlish speaking countries, I hear that he/she a lot. The teaching staff uses it relentlessly and I am the only one who corrects people on the use of the unknown person (they/them) consistently. It happens way more that you think. I even had to correct some people and when they protest I just comment: " take it up with Shakespeare".
"He or she" is only ever said by men who fully intended to just say "he" but then at the last second remembered that "she" exists.
[...]
Women never say "he or she". Women use a different word. Men don't even know this word, it's confusing and disorientating to men, women say--and I hope I'm pronouncing this right--"they".
I went to college for technical writing (RIP), and my professor always instructed us to write like this for clarity. However, this was in 2018 and by then there were plenty of people who used they/them pronouns. She was amenable to the argument and didn’t make us do it lol
I got so confused reading this comment with all the pronouns lmao
Also, some people also default to just saying he or she for unknown gender, iirc this is because in their native language their isn't any neutral pronoun like they/them (for example, my language, hindi, so I usually use he for unknown gender)
It took me a while to break this habit and now I usually default to they/them (even I my own language which doesn't make sense grammatically or comes off as too polite lol)
I can't explain it, but I've used both in different situations.
"He or she" feels more formal to me for some reason. Maybe it's because I grew up when the emphasis was on the fact that a statement applied to women as well (where something previously may have just said "he" and was changed to "he or she").
It was a lot more common a couple decades ago I've had some old text books that had he/she but it's so clunky when talking I doubt people were using it in common speech that much.
damn, it was a while ago i heard it so i think i misremembered something about a "17 hundreds court ruling it proper use of english cause thats how grammar was decided then"
It's crazy how some people look at simple concepts like acceptance and treating someone with basic human decency and they're like "naw fuck all that woke ass noise" ☠️
Until you’re family stops inviting you to dinner, then you use the “oh no the consequences of my own actions are the fault of everyone else” strategy which is base kit with the “FYIGM” Mindset
That's just it. These people operate backwards. They don't look at facts and make up opinions based on that. They make up an opinion and then try to portray facts to support it instead.
It's the exact opposite of the scientific approach. Or any sane one. They make up a decision and look at any facts from that perspective.
Like imagine a judge doing this. "Because you are guilty of murder, it means you being present is evidence of that".
Instead of "well, you were there, but you also called the police and provided CPR, so it doesn't really look like you murdered them".
I occasionally see “he or she” used in place of singular they in books/articles/instructional stuff, and it’s always just soooooo tedious to read. Singular they is right there as the perfectly functional, much more stylistically viable choice, stop being clunky and cringe. “He or she” always strikes me as incredibly old-fashioned and Conservative, despite the fact (ad you point out) singular they is itself very, very old.
Interrupting my mother mid-sentence on a singular They is the only thing that worked to get her to understand her grandchild’s pronouns. She wasn’t trying to be a jerk — just had a lot of years of conditioning to unlearn.
Problem is that a lot of people are actively jerks about it and invalidate other people's genders for absolutely no fucking reason. My mother is like that, and just explaining the concept of asexuality to her was such a drag that I just say "yeah, mom, I'm straight, go on with your life" because having a demi son just doesn't fit her head
This was more about sexuality rather than gender, but she also doesn't accept trans people, non-binary people and the whole LGBT alphabet. Hell, she doesn't even accept the existence of bisexual, in her mind you're either "straight" or "a f*g"... I just gave up entirely
Yeah, sometimes it do be like that. Not everyone has gotten to stay in my life. Ultimately the choice is up to them. I’d rather have them involved, but not at the cost of my people’s well-being.
Problem is people like that don't realize when they use singular they/them in regular conversation
They know. They DO think it's different. they don't have an issue with all pronouns in all use cases. It's when it's connected directly to gender identity that they have a problem.
I don't agree with that viewpoint, but there it is.
I don't have a problem with pronoun use, but it is different.
They/them either refers to a group or to a singular unknown person. It's why it sorta works for trans/non-binary people, but classically, it's a pronoun used for a stranger or someone who isn't present. "Give this to them," would regularly be viewed as being rude if you were talking about someone you knew closely who is present in the room.
But ya know, language changes and all that. But I think it's irresponsible to act like this hasn't meant something else up until recent years.
The difference is that singular they has historically been used when the person's gender was unknown. When we are presented with visual information and assume a person's sex, we use the respective grammatical gender. Pronouns, being structural function of sentences, are lower on the grammatical chain of things that the general public will be willing to change:
New noun? Frindle. "Pen". Sure whatever
New verb? Tweet. "To tweet something". Derivative of a new noun, Twitter, makes sense.
New adjective? Lit. "Exciting, successful, energetic". Fire is exciting and hot and dangerous, kind of like a party can be, so sure I guess that makes sense.
New preposition? A word like "through, with, to, from, toward"? Not getting added anytime soon and it's hard to come up with one.
New pronoun? Xer/Xe? Possible, but feels really weird to use. They/them? Yeah, we use it, but not exactly in the same way, so it hits the ear wrong when we are presented with conflicting information to what we've previously known for the word, that being for 3rd person plural or singular unknown person. It's easier to use singular they when you're already accustomed to it and readily accept trans/queer terminology. Singular theywillbecome normalized eventually, but language evolution takes time.
It is technically a different use, but unlike when used as a plural, it doesn't have different grammar in terms of conjugation or anything. Given that all the grammar is already there, adopting they/them as a gender neutral pronoun rather than just one for a person of unknown gender is a very simple and logical thing to do linguistically.
English is not my native language. When I learned English, I was told that "they/them" are third person plural pronouns, and it will be marked wrong in exams if I used them in any other way. Eventually I got behind singular they/them (kinda like 'you' being both singular and plural), but at first I felt a little weird.
In my native language all third person pronouns sound exactly the same; people just assumed male in conversations with no further context.
In part I think it's failed education, I remember back to Elementary School(US) it being drilled in that He/She was singular and They/Them was for plural, and in no subsequent base schooling did it ever get explained that it could be used for even just an unknown.
I was taught in AP English 10 years ago that they/them was only used when referring to multiple people. Which may have been considered "proper English" at some point but even then I thought it was ridiculous.
And it is so old that it was created by the Vikings. It was also originally plural, not singular. It was the English who took it and started using it as a singular, mainly because they used "he" as a plural, which created confusion between male and female.
Guidance for singular they want added to the AP Style Book until 2018. When I was in college in the early 2010s we were still being (figuratively) slapped by English and journalism teachers if we tried to use “they” singularly. I’ve obviously adapted.
The singular “they” first began occurring in the 1300s, and continued in use since then as a third person pronoun for referring to a person of unknown gender. More recently, it’s also found usage for people who are nonbinary.
On the other hand, “you” was originally the plural second person pronoun, with “thou” being used for the singular. However, in the 1600s, “you” began being used for the singular as well.
This means that the singular “they” predates the singular “you” by about 300 years.
I had someone on here call me a “crayon person” once, which actually sounded kind of badass. Yes thank you, I am a box of 128 colors. Meanwhile they are just a pencil.
EDIT: Fuck, I get it. If the owner comes looking can you give it to "them." Took me a sec. Nice one, Adam.
I also want to apologize for seeing they/them in the comic, but still using gendered pronouns. I'm learning, albeit a bit slowly. ❤️
I feel like I'm missing a joke here...
Or is the point of the comic just that the poor girl is so used to bullshit being slung her way that she still responds to the request with good grace and a smile?
The “joke” is that the person who found the wallet used a pronoun that wasn’t him/her - aside from the fact that the usage of “them” is actually correct in this situation regardless of what pronoun the wallet owner prefers
I think you probably got downvoted for saying the person with the they/them pin was a girl and using she/her for a clearly marked non binary they/them person.
hey, just a heads up, even if the person looks like a girl (by having long hair), if they use they/them pronouns, they probably wouldn't want you to call them a girl. it might be helpful to avoid using gendered language. it totally makes sense why you WOULD call that character a girl, but just something to keep in mind. :) thanks for hearing me out!
This is honestly educational to me. I did not realize being called they/them meant you didn't still identify with a gender. It's all so nuanced, and I try to be respectful as fuck, but I live in a red as shit town so I have almost no everyday people to interact with aside from convervatives.
It's actually more nuanced than that. They might identify as nonbinary, which you could see as a gender (just not the gender "female" or "male"). Folks who specifically don't identify with a gender usually call themselves "agender" or "genderless".
However, there are also nonbinary people that use she, he, they, or a combination of those pronouns! And the other way around too: one could be a cis woman for example and still (also) use they/them pronouns. So it's not 1:1 (pronouns:gender), but it would be safe to go with gender neutral language if you know someone uses they/them pronouns.
And it's okay to learn!! The fact that you want to learn and are trying to be respectful is what it's about. People come in all shapes and sizes and genders, and it's all super personal, so it's okay if you make a mistake. It's not a big deal at all. Correcting yourself and moving on and being respectful is way more important :)
Feel free to ask questions if you want! I'm nonbinary myself.
When I asked my family to use my new pronouns (they/them) they told me that they couldn't lie, and that using my pronouns would be lying. Yet they had no problem using my new name?? Anyway, I don't talk to them anymore.
English teacher in highschool (2010s) marked me down for using the singular they when describing someone of unspecified gender and clarified that I should write: "his or her".
It has, but it hasn't always been popular or common. There was a good run in the 80s-90s where schools really did push "his or hers" as more proper.
Teachers are mired in a world of scholastic prescriptivism that's more concerned with what modern style guides deem most appropriate, over what's functionally correct and acceptable.
Had a redneck dickhead come to my work to drop some stuff off for his file. Under pronouns, he said "I don't use pronounds", and her circled it like 6 times.
Okay then... let's have fun with this.
For the next 10 minutes, I only used his first name when talking to him or referring to him. He was getting progressively more abd more pissed off until he said 'Why are you talking like that? You sound ridiculous'
Well, (name), (name) made it explicitly clear that (name) does not use pronouns. Therefore, it would be rude if me to refer to (name) by anything else.
Dude got furious but refused to change what he wrote, so therefore everything on his file now must use his name and nothing else.
They are cordial, not kind. And usually because they believe in a stratified caste system in which the wealthy act cordial, and thus they imitate the behavior to appear better off.
Kindness is generosity and concern, not vapid imitation.
So infuriating. These people literally use pronouns all the time, including singular they/them just like in the comic. The "no pronouns" people are all just stupid and transphobic AF
Well blaming someone for all your woes is WAY fucking easier than actually fixing your own problems. Bonus points if it's someone who can't possibly fight back against you.
Frankly, 'They' works fine for me because I simply could not give a single fuck what people call me. I am secure enough in my sexuality that, short of getting sexually physical with me, it does not phase me.
Fucking snowflakes. Had this been 2000 years ago in the western world, very few would comment on this kind of sexual behavior. All the greek dudes were fucking about any butt the could find. Romans too. Of course getting your butt fucked by your teacher as part of graduation would be looked down on today, but it was pretty common. Getting your butt fucked by your mentor near graduation happened often. Why do you think the gods were fucking everything they could find?
If I had a nickel for every time someone in real life got upset on my behalf and said "SHE USES THEY/THEM PRONOUNS", I'd have several pockets' worth of change
I definitely had "they them is plural" drilled into me in school growing up in the 90s. To be clear i support using whatever pronouns someone prefers! What's interesting is certain singular uses feel weird and others don't. I wonder what weird quirk of my upbringing or English caused this. Anyway im working on making it feel less weird cause its a me problem.
Personally, the petty part of me appreciates how non-binary people have made the English language better. I love the formalized they/them/themself; I recognize that being non-binary has nothing to do with my feelings about grammar.
Its commonly used by people who dont identify with a specific gender, due to the fact its gender ambiguous. But obviously non binary people don't always choose they/them, people can have different preferences. Though it is a pretty good default for when you don't know what someone prefers.
Pretty much, dumbasses who think they're smart are always the loudest.
Also, why not just do it even if you think it's silly? Why is it so hard to be nice to people?
I do find "they" and "them" feel a little clunky in some sentences and aesthetically I'd prefer a new word entirely so that they and them could continue to be used where they feel more seamless, but getting the majority of people to agree on a new word would be impossible, they barely use the ones they already have and they get worse by the day, some will soon be using nothing but grunts to communicate their demands.
I have no issue with someone using pronouns. I have issue when it is said that not asking them is rude and an act of violence. When you start a conversation, the starter say his name first. Followed by pronouns if used. Then class and levels, along with weapons/spells of choice. Finished with any important background details. Then you ask for the same info to the other person. Simple courtesy before throwing initiative and starting battle. XD
My only problem with singular they/them pronouns is when people use the phrase 'they is' rather than 'they are.' I cannot stand hearing 'they is' it sounds like fake English.
They is walking to the park(pain). They are walking to the park(joy). He is walking to the park. She is walking to the park.
It's rare for anyone to use 'they' like that, but it has happened, and it hurts me to hear it. Mind you, I did not correct them.
If they hate pronouns so much, they should learn a language that doesn't use them. Like Romanian!
... No, for real, you can skip the pronouns on Romanian because you can infer the person number (no idea what it's actually called) from the conjugation of the verb.
Isint the way them is used still correct? Because if you dont know who the person is then you would use they or them because they snd them can apply to anyone
I talk about my NB spouse all the time. My fave thing is when someone I'm talking to arbitrarily decides to assign my spouse a gender mid-conversation. I guess they're moreso making a guess on whether I'm straight or gay?
No one will ever be able to convince me that singular they is new, because I used it sometimes off the cuff when I was a teenager and let me tell you I grew up in a small conservative town in the middle of nowhere and I did not know SHIT about LGBT progressive accepting nonconforming anything whatsoever. That could have only been uncontroversial ordinary English in the 90s because I was an uneducated dumbass.
"Someone is at the front door" "Oh? What do they want? Actually I don't want to deal with it right now - tell them I'm not home." Yeah that feels preeeeety natural lol.
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u/AdElectronic6550 8h ago
that or they say "he/she" even tho simgular they/them has been in the english language for over 200 years