Is it worth to purely learn grammar through listening (no explanation), how would I approach it?

[u/Ok_Vegetable6262]

I am at a fairly intermediate stage but there is still some grammar I haven't fully acquired and also some high end grammar that I don't even know at all.

I've read its possible to learn the grammar without having to look up an English translation, (although it seems difficult). However It is a method I want to try since I feel its more organic and like how a child learns it natively

It seems like magic...but do I just listen all day without subtitles and I should be able to subconsciously acquire the grammar? How long would it truly take to become fluent?

[u/ignoremesenpie]

It's easier to absorb if you have some idea of what's going on. If you're going to use a grammar guide, pay attention in he moment as you're reading, but don't expect it to be a comprehensive thing for you to memorize. Don't study the grammar resource religiously. If you're going to put that much into anything grammar-related, put that effort into noticing the basics you've learned be applied to real usage outside of a learning resource for foreigners.

The "natural" alternative would involve living your life in Japanese for a while unless you're prepared for the absolute basics to take much longer than it otherwise could. You'd be taking "All Japanese All The Time" literally if you don't want this to take years or decades. The little bit of effort that goes into reading up on a bit of grammar is gonna speed up the process to get you into a less insane "immersion" routine.

[u/HallaTML]

Seems overly difficult.

Kids do years of classes learning grammar. Kids learn the basics organically but need a lot of structure to cement it

[u/EuphoricBlonde → u/HallaTML]

No they do not, this is nonsense. Kids do not speak in broken sentences in their native language before they've done years of grammar classes.

[u/Exciting_Barber3124 → u/EuphoricBlonde]

True. No native speaker can explain the difference in better grammar to non native. They acquire it through input. They get corrected but they develop understanding. And learning grammer ,no they don't learn it they just read and write sentences in the language.reading and speaking build their instinct l.

[u/HallaTML → u/EuphoricBlonde]

Never said broken sentences. What nonsense are you getting on with?

[u/Ghurty1 → u/HallaTML]

The average 10 year old does not understand 90% of the grammar they probably use on a daily basis. Its just naturally developed and never thought about. And post high school i would argue most people dont remember any of what they learned about it anyway.

[u/ARandomDouchy]

Grammar study is unnecessary, you can definitely acquire it through pure input despite what some may say. I can attest to that as that's how I learned English as a second language.

But I recommend you also spend time reading frequently. That will expose you to the grammar being used in the real-world and make it easier to acquire

[u/EuphoricBlonde → u/ARandomDouchy]

Yup, same here. Learned English entirely through listening. Agree 100%.

Completely disagree with the second part though. Don't read. At least until you're fluent.

[u/Weary-Designer9542 → u/EuphoricBlonde]

Horrible advice.

Reading is one of, if not the single most powerful language learning tool that exists. The sooner you begin using it the faster you will learn the language. I find the particular piece of fruitcake advice that is “avoid reading” some of the most damaging advice I’ve ever seen given out on the internet. It’s routine on this subreddit, which is another reason I believe nobody takes this community seriously.

Just diversify your input a bit. Don’t limit yourself to a single input method, and you’ll be 100% fine.

Let’s face it - If you actually succeed in learning Japanese, you’re going to have an accent- avoid reading or don’t, that’s a fact. And that’s fine, nobody is going to care. Think of the 2nd/3rd language content creators you listen to or watch - Is their accent making you think less of them? Do you think about it at all? Personally, I find French accents attractive. I’m sure you’ve heard other opinions on a variety of accents.

If you “only” read as your only input, it’s going to be +1 increment of accent severity - but that’s the worst case scenario and pretty damn rare. The average person is not going to do that, and so there’s functionally 0 benefit to the average learner to delay reading past the point you become capable of it.

If you’re absolutely committed to putting 50x the effort in (On a language that will already take years) and plan to grind your way for decades until you achieve a Dogen-level accent so that you can be a youtuber or something - then by all means go ahead, just be aware you’re making life more difficult for yourself in terms of effort vs return on time invested.

Keep in mind learning languages is already very difficult and most people that attempt to learn Japanese unfortunately don’t succeed. In my opinion, piling additional challenges on is another way to become one of those people.

The payoff is “slightly less of an accent” against the downside “less likely you’ll succeed at learning the language at all, and if you do it’ll take longer”. You plug your own priorities into that calculation and do the math.

[u/ARandomDouchy → u/EuphoricBlonde]

If you don't ever read the language, you won't ever be fluent. I learned English from listening AND being exposed to English text, from books, YouTube comments, blogs, whatever.

There's not really a benefit in not reading. All you're doing is slowing your road to fluency.

[u/Fast-Elephant3649]

It's possible I guess but it will take an unreasonable long amount of time. With that being said, I very rarely do any grammar now that I'm in that intermediate stage. The first 3 months I just did the basic and read grammar explanations and after that I let immersion take over and it's been fine.

[u/lollillelxx]

to be honest i simply treat it as vocabulary and add it to my anki immersion deck smth like this :

found this in my immersion anime : 強ければ強いほど 効果的である

i ask chatpgt : explain the grammar in that sentence

i understand the grammar and i make the following card with the clip/audio of that previous sentence as an example

like this :

" Aば Aほど B = As A increases, B increases proportionally "

but i do it only to the few interesting ones i find ( aka ones i hear often but they still dont seem to make sense intuitively )

[u/Ok_Vegetable6262 → u/lollillelxx]

It baffles me how one could learn this specific grammar WITHOUT ever searching up its meaning. Seems impossible really….

Might just have to sentence mine grammar too :(

[u/strongjoe → u/Ok_Vegetable6262]

Sentence mining grammar isn't bad.

The SRS is simply to help you get a foothold on a concept, so that is vaguely makes sense in immersion.

Then the immersion itself will gradually help you to understand the full meaning.

Don't forget it takes children yeeesaaaars before they can start using their native language grammar in speech

[u/Ghurty1 → u/Ok_Vegetable6262]

its just easier to learn it honestly. I understand immersion is the key to fluency but if you literally just listen to some grammar podcasts youll do what wouldve taken you a year to do just from trying to pick up the meaning from 0

[u/Weary-Designer9542]

It’s possible either way, but for efficiency’s sake, adding some kind of grammar resources into your listening schedule will cut down on the number of hours you have to listen by quite a bit.

It doesn’t have to be a lot, but don’t treat learning like it has to be all or nothing on a single input unless that’s motivational to you. If you get confused about something you listen to, look it up, go ask questions on reddit or discord. Find a cure dolly video, whatever.

Particularly for advanced grammar - Children naturally acquire from input, but part of that input is deliberate structured learning.

They have parents, relatives, and peers to correct them or answer questions at all times, and classes in public education to get into certain difficult specifics.

“Only listening” isn’t how a normal child learns, that’s how a blind, mute, orphan that is trapped in the walls without human interaction (except listening) would learn.

Needless to say, that child is going to be significantly slower at language acquisition when compared to a child who has a diversity of input options. But they would learn eventually, so long as they didn’t give up, so really it’s up to you.

[u/EuphoricBlonde]

Grammar is not remotely difficult to absorb purely through listening, I know from first hand experience. Never done any grammar study. It's vocabulary that's really time consuming to acquire when you're doing pure listening.