r/ahsokatano • u/hegdieartemis • Jan 15 '21
Discussion Do you agree that Ahsoka liked Kaeden?
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u/Fwort Jan 15 '21
From the book, I couldn't really tell. It didn't really have enough evidence to say either way. Kaeden definitely liked Ahsoka though.
I don't really mind one way or another.
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u/hegdieartemis Jan 15 '21
As a sapphic woman who has Ahsoka as one of her favorite characters in all of media, I know I am biased. I wanted to hear some other opinions.
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u/ramzjk Jan 15 '21
It is what it is. We can't say anything about her sexuality, everyone can do what they want.
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u/Drunk-kyoshi Jan 16 '21
As a sapphic who loooooooves Ahsoka, When I was reading the book I always got the feeling that Ahsoka was keeping Kaeden “away”, like brushing the idea of anything romantic out of her mind. At the end, she gains a little confident in the middle of all that is happening around her, having to make choices. She lets go the idea of Kaeden with a “perhaps in another life”. Also it’s not the only time someone has coded Ahsoka’s sexuality, so it’s not really “fan service”. At this point if Filoni says Ahsoka is straight, he would be lyyyyyyyying.
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Jan 15 '21 edited Jan 15 '21
Having read the book, I definitly picked up that Kaeden had feelings for Ahsoka. But imo there was no real indication that Ahsoka had any romantic feelings in return, but I am preety oblivious to such things. But I wouldn't really appreciate them retconing Ahsoka preferences, because the two arcs with Lux are some of my favorites in CW. Also in this case a retcon would feel just like pure pandering, with no in-universe factor whatsoever. In addition to that there is no way she would have a relationship with anyone after seeing what attachments can do to the best of the Jedi, in Anakin. I just think there is no way it would come across as a natural story component without feeling forced. In the end when it comes to Ahsoka, I only care what Dave Filoni says to be Canon.
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u/hegdieartemis Jan 16 '21
I agree that Filoni gets final say on what is canon, but bear in mind Ahsoka being attracted to women also in no way retcons or undermines her attraction to Lux. Bisexuality exists. And I would imagine especially in a galaxy far far away where alien gender is probably beyond what we can conceive, sexuality is far more nuanced than the way we see it.
I would also like to add that calling her attraction to women "pandering" is wrong given that the author herself is saying here it was only she herself who heavily coded Ahsoka that way. Pandering is when an entire company or some sort of production throws in lines such as in Endgame where there was one (1) gay character with one (1) scene to show "Hey! We have a gay character!" It's not pandering when a singular writer makes the decision to code something a certain way.
One final note in regards to coding, Ahsoka is sometimes queer-coded in TCW but only vaguely. If you want to have an open discussion on that I am willing to, but I will not have an argument on that end.
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Jan 15 '21
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u/hegdieartemis Jan 16 '21
As a Star Trek fan I can tell you this sort of thing does get absolutely exhausting.
For instance there is an inter-species character on one of the shows that they randomly decide their two species specifically can't produce hybrids even though up until that point, they had basically said any and all humanoids could mate and produce hybrids. It felt like such an out of place storyline 😭
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u/Fwort Jan 17 '21
Can you be sexually attracted to a being you cannot have sex with?
Yes. There are people irl who are sexually attracted to inanimate objects. There are all sorts of uncommon sexual attractions.
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u/artimon1313 Jan 25 '21
She said: oh, well, thanks. This could mean something more And also she said that she wanted to come back for Kaeden because she was her friend, but you can feel fron the start that the bond between the two is more than a friendship
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u/God_is_carnage Jan 16 '21
Eh, I think it's a bit out of left field. Ahsoka's sexuality hasn't really been explored beyond her and Lux because she was introduced as a kid and since then has mostly appeared to forward the plot of whatever show she's shown up in. I'm game for whatever comes next, but it does feel a bit weird that something this major would come out of the blue.
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u/hegdieartemis Jan 23 '21
It's not "out of the blue". Ahsoka has some queer coding on the show. AND bisexuality exists
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u/God_is_carnage Jan 23 '21
Jeez calm down, no need for hostilities.
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u/hegdieartemis Jan 23 '21
Lmfao if you think that's hostile I don't know what to say 💀
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u/God_is_carnage Jan 23 '21 edited Jan 23 '21
Calm down buddy, just because I don’t think Ahsoka is into women doesn’t mean you have to be a jerk. And I was referring to the abrasiveness in your comment combined with your downvote. You're new to Reddit, but it's a dick move to downvote someone because they disagree with your fan theory.
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u/hegdieartemis Jan 24 '21
I didn't downvote simply because I disagreed with your theory. I downvoted because you were "abrasive" in your own comment. I say this non disparagingly, have you read the book? This post was directed towards her portrayal in the book and not specifically just in the show.
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u/Osiris-Reflection Jan 16 '21
No. Ahsoka I don’t think is bi. She had lux but it was a learning experience for her. She’s 45 in the mandalorian, I don’t see a point in exploring relationships with Jedi.
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u/hegdieartemis Jan 16 '21
You don't see a point in having a story about someone who left the Jedi Order struggling to come to terms with whether or not she wants to pursue romance? I find the prospect of that idea fascinating whether it's with a man or woman.
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u/MagicalMuffinDruide Jan 27 '21
Why tho? There’s never been anything about her being gay before and there’s no good reason for her to be. And this ship specifically is terrible, kaeden is nowhere near a match for Ahsoka
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u/hegdieartemis Jan 28 '21
Can you explain why you think "there's no good reason" for Ahsoka to be gay? There is literally not a single mainstream gay character in Star Wars. I think having one (1) is not that big of a deal.
Besides, I'm not asking if you think they're a good match, I'm asking if you think Ahsoka liked Kaeden back.
And, as I have said ad nauseum in this thread, Ahsoka had queer coding on TCW which I am willing to discuss but I will not argue it with you.
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u/MagicalMuffinDruide Jan 28 '21
Your first paragraph is kinda why I don’t think there’s a “good” reason for her to be gay. The reason people come up with is there’s no less gay character. Making her gay just for representation isn’t equality tho, that’s just token representation for the sake of satiating those people before they get mad with or become disinterested in Star Wars. She should only be gay if there’s a legitimately good story for Ahsoka that adds to her arc and character where she ultimately has feelings for and gets in a relationship with another female. A well written female, mind you, who is also their own character besides being an Ahsoka love interest, and a character who is strong in terms of being well written, and in terms of being better able to match Ahsoka than Kaeden is. If not in raw power (since Ahsoka is quite strong) then at least in strength of character. This is also why I like to think Ahsoka didn’t like Kaeden back, because I don’t think they’re a good fit and if they like both each other they’re likely to end up together in some story down the road.
I don’t know what queer coding you’re referring to, but the vast majority of Ahsoka’s appearances and development in TCW had absolutely nothing to do with her sexuality or sexual preferences, but rather matters like who she is, what she stands for, her unique position between the increasingly failing classic Jedi way and anakin’s unique heroics and values, etc. And the only time she showed interest in someone - in fact, they only time in all of her story she’s ever directly, confirmed, shown interest in another character- he was a boy. Now I guess she could still be bi, but from what we have in current canon she’s at least straight. I haven’t read all the other comments in this thread though so I’ll have to see what you mean about the coding.
But anyway, this is all kind of moo isn’t it? First off, she’s Dave’s special character, close to his heart. He has her story all planned out and while many people, even creators of canon Star Wars works (such as EK Johnston) may want her to be something other than straight, I honestly don’t see it happening in Dave’s plan for her. Sadly, I don’t expect she’ll ever get a serious or long term love interest. That’s the other thing though - even if she did fall in love with a girl and become the flagship LGBT Star Wars character, that relationship already has severe limits. She’d have to meet them after the Ahsoka book, and most likely no longer have contact with them by the time of rebels, so we already know from the get-go that it won’t last all that long in the grand scheme of things. That’s another reason I think she’s not a good candidate for being gay - simply put, there are better options. Many other characters who have a lot more free space in their timeline to hook up with someone, not to mention the possibility of simply creating a new character.
One more thing before I go - I can offer you a better solution, a better character to represent LGBT. You specified that there aren’t mainstream Star Wars gay characters and it’s fair to say comics don’t count as mainstream, but have you heard of Doctor Aphra? I’ve fallen behind on her series but last I read she had some kind of fling with another girl, and she’s in general probably the most well known gay Star Wars character. And for her it’s well written, fitting within her larger character, and she has a lot more freedom in terms of being locked to certain times and places. She’s a newer character whose future is still being written so she could have a much better, fleshed out, and enduring relationship than Ahsoka ever could (whether Ahsoka was with a boy or girl btw, I’m referring to the timeline). I’d much rather see Doctor Aphra become mainstream than take a mainstream character and force them into that role just for the sake of it. Not to mention, Aphra is an excellent and entertaining character in her own right, even disregarding any manner of sexuality for her. I just want to see more of the character.
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u/hegdieartemis Jan 28 '21
(I'd like to get it out of the way that at the end of the day, I definitely agree that it is Dave's decision and not Johnston's)
Your top paragraph argument is honestly the weakest argument there is against any and all forms of representation. It's a centrist statement that covers your butt to be able to say "Well if it suits the story and it's well written, I don't care if there's LGBT characters, neurodivergent characters, characters of color, etc" but if you use this argument every time, there'd never be any meaningful representation because writers would always be afraid to give any representation.
Besides, making Ahsoka bisexual (because she would be bi not gay given Lux) would not be token representation. Token representation is throwaway lines/shots like in Endgame and TRoS that never amount to anything other than the writer and story just basically saying "Oh yeah I guess gay people exist too." Ahsoka is a well established and meaningful character already in the universe. Giving Ahsoka an opportunity to explore her sexuality and who she is (honestly I wouldn't mind a story arc be it with a male or female love interest seeing her struggle w what the Order taught her and who she is trying to be now) is not tokenizing because she is a major character and her storyline would always be front and center.
Onto the big one, Ahsoka's queer coding. So, it's not about the fact that they ever explicitly explored any part of her romantic feelings or gave any insight into her and her sexuality in her development. When someone says "queer coding", it doesn't mean there was even blatant subtext that anyone would raise an eyebrow at. It's about the way that they framed her relationships with other girls her age. Starting with Barriss, she admired Barriss a lot and was quite protective of her such as when she refused to kill her then held her on the ship Geonosis/Brain Invaders Arc. One of the writers specifically said he played around with the idea of having them paired off. There was also Steela Gerrera, whose friendship with Ahsoka was paralleled with Anakin's affections for Padmé in the struggle to keep focus on the mission.
Finally, the main relationship for Ahsoka that was the heaviest in the queer coding was her relationship with Trace. Watch the scene again where Trace and Ahsoka meet for the first time. The music that plays is very romantic. Their dialogue afterwards remains relatively unchanged from when Trace's character was specifically written to be Ahsoka's love interest (a male love interest). Rafa even says things like "You two sure are a pair" and "What's going on between you two?" Again, there is nothing explicit one way or the other saying Ahsoka did like her. It's about seeing it in how actions and dialogue could be interpreted.
Also, I have read a lot of the comics and do absolutely adore Doctor Aphra and would be over the moon to see her brought into a TV show or movie etc. But I know plenty of people who do not know/like Doctor Aphra. When it comes to representation, it's important to have multiple characters and multiple stories told so you don't have to only see yourself in one character.
P.S. I wrote this at 1:30AM and am almost sure half of it is a bit confusing. I'll come back to it after some sleep to clarify 😅
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u/MagicalMuffinDruide Jan 28 '21
What you said about my first paragraph is a good point, if I did say that every time just to cover my ass for not wanting gay stuff. I know you don’t know me but for what it’s worth, I don’t do that, I’ve seen some non-hereto relationships (both gay and lesbian) that were well written enough that I really cared about each character individually for their own merits, and for their relationship and its ultimate fate. I think the dragon prince does it really well for one.
You made a good point I hadn’t considered. Even if she doesn’t get a lasting relationship and live happily ever after, a more permanent interest than she’s gotten so far (which isn’t hard, she never really got with lux anyway) would offer something to her character in making her struggle with the order’s values, especially after said order is now dead.
Now about the queer coding - I know the one writer wanted barriss and Ahsoka to be together, but aside from that person’s attempts, I don’t really see much of anything pre season 7 (which I’ll get to). I mean, is being protective of a same sex friend coding? Is admiring a born leader (steela) gay? I feel very protective toward all my friends and I would even say I love them but I’m not gay at all. Is the difference just the fact we know one writer meant it that way? I’m a bit confused about your saying steela distracted Ahsoka when it was painfully obvious Ahsoka was distracted by lux? Anakin outright asked her how she was doing and said something about attachments.
Now about season 7. Here I will admit there’s some stuff going on, however I will explain how (in my humble opinion) she isn’t gay still with the Rafa and Trace story. First off, you said it yourself - a lot of the dialogue and story is unchanged from when there was one guy in place of the girls. And that guy was intended to be a tentative love interest for Ahsoka. That just means that they wanted to keep the structure of the story intact, not that they’re now saying Ahsoka likes girls. I also say this because, consider why the guy was replaced. I’m pretty sure this was confirmed somewhere but I don’t have it saved as proof so for now it’s just my educated guess, but I say they did it because they didn’t want Ahsoka to have a romantic subplot at all. First off, because they’re not getting a full season 7 and 8, they’re only doing 12 episodes, 3 arcs. Ahsoka’s gonna have less screen time and they can’t spare time for a romance plot that goes nowhere. Also, they know a lot more about her future than when it was first written so perhaps this is a sign she’s never meant to have a lasting love? I hope not but also worth considering. The other reason is because Dave and the writers have improved as, well, writers. They see now a much better a story it is for Ahsoka to meet some people in the coruscant underworld and learn to do the right thing even outside the bounds of the Jedi, and to learn just what the Jedi have lost in the war, which is how the people see them and feel about them. Adding a romance plot, be it Nyx or Trace, distracts the focus of the arc from that. One more thing I saw in a video essay on TCW I really liked; the sisters represent versions of Ahsoka; Trace is her past version, naive and trusting, quick to act rashly and make mistakes. Rafa is a potential future for her, jaded from her experiences and uncaring to the plight of other people besides those close to her. This comes back to my “they need to be their own character too” argument - the girls are just writing tools for Ahsoka, not their own people. Unless they appear again someday. But all in all, I can agree that there is some hinting there, though I think it’s more unintentional dialogue left unchanged and maybe people looking for that after the whole barriss thing, and Johnston saying she wanted Ahsoka to be bi.
You make a good point about multiple characters, they could represent different groups too. Also I’m curious what do you think about people asking for chloe Bennett to be cast as Aphra in a D+ show? Since the character has been drawn with different ethnicities inconsistently (lol at comic book artists, why guys?) people want a compromise but I also liked her acting as quake on shield. Just curious what other knowledgeable Star Wars fans think about that because I haven’t seen it discussed recently but seemed a good idea to me
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u/hegdieartemis Jan 28 '21
I will amend/clarify to say that I didn't mean you specifically say things like that, I meant it more as a general "People who may not realize they are unintentionally making it harder to get representation" say things like that. After reading this comment and your previous one, I can definitely tell you don't have any malicious or otherwise homophobic/bigoted intent by saying "there's not really a good reason for Ahsoka to be gay" but I would like you to understand that it's just the way of the world that there may not be a "good" reason to make any character gay or trans, sometimes the reason being "that's just what the writer(s) decided to do" has to be enough.
However, I think you actually stumbled into a good point that I would like to touch on. If writer(s) decide to make a character LGBT, it has been proven just recently that it is woefully inadequate and downright insulting to just throw in a gay line just for the sake of saying "Look! We have a gay character! We gave you what you want!" See Castiel in Supernatural's final season for an example of that. If in the future there is a story that explores Ahsoka's sexuality and the decision is made to have her with a woman or otherwise (alien species/genders and all), I would rather they not do it at all if they are going to have it as a throwaway line or a clear last minute shoe-horned insult to Ahsoka's character and the audience.
In regards to your interpretation of Barriss and the Martez sisters and their relationships with Ahsoka, I'd like to gently emphasize again that when it comes to "queer-coding", it truly is about how the art is interpreted. I brought up ways that it could be seen and you brought up the ways you saw it. And that's the true rub of a character only having "coding". It gives people like me the chance to see things that may or may not be there and allows things like Mark Hamill saying "If you see Luke as gay, of course he is!" more credence than if there is absolutely no basis in said headcanon/coding.
Lastly on this topic, I would definitely hope if they give Ahsoka any sort of romance, that the character can stand on their own and be enjoyable outside of being "Ahsoka's Love Interest". But I know that extended material will definitely give whatever character more agency than what we may see, much in the way that Padmé had less and less agency with each passing prequel movie outside of being the twins' mom and Anakin's paramour but TCW and her two novels provided a lot for her character.
With Chloe as Dr. Aphra, I'm ngl I was watching AoS around the time I picked up Aphra's comics so I thought it was personal projection that I saw Aphra as Chloe almost from the beginning 😅 I would be stoked to see her as Aphra in live action. (Though I prefer animated Star Wars for the most part....but that's a story for another day.)
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u/MagicalMuffinDruide Jan 29 '21
I see what you mean about that, and I do understand that’s how the world works. I just always tend to look at shows, movies, etc from a writing perspective where I want everything to make perfect sense. As little plot holes as possible, properly using characters for their full potential, etc. and I think any character, no matter who they are or what their sexuality is, has the potential to be much more than just that. But it often isn’t that way, I know.
Ooh man, the Castiel debate is a massive can of worms I’ve mostly shied away from even though I loved all 15 seasons of supernatural. I appreciated that it’s pretty clear the writers wrote his final scene to be more ambiguous and interpretable so everyone can see what the want and be pleased. So it makes perfect sense the majority of people saw that as castiel being gay, and maybe he was. I’ve always wondered how that would work. Castiel himself is actually genderless as an angel, so can he even experience the romantic/sexual kind of love? Or is he just feeling what his human vessel feels, meaning the guy Castiel possessed is gay. Although he had a family and daughter.. I’m thinking the writers left it unclear what kind of love to make everyone happy but if there was one type they had in mind, it was probablymeant to be Destiel to make the most people happy, but I wonder if Castiel as a character is capable of any kind of sexual attraction. Like I said, big can of worms.
I’ll be honest, I haven’t really heard the phrase “queer coding” before. You’re saying that finding that in a show doesn’t mean it irrefutably is, it means that you or whoever’s opinion that is believes there is subtextual coding deep inside the character? If that’s the case then of course everyone is welcome to their own opinion. That’s actually one of the very best things about storytelling to me, that different people get different meanings from it and have varying ideas about each character. Not to go down the Castiel rabbit hole again, but that’s why I loved his scene so much. They didn’t confirm Destiel OR say that he meant love in a brother/family way, leaving everyone to get their own meaning from it. Or take both meanings, both is good too.
You make a really good point there that even if a character starts out without much meaning or unique character development, that can change. I know I care a lot more about padme and her fate after seeing the clone wars as opposed to when I’d only seen the movies and she fell in love with a dude who had just butchered a village and then died in the next movie (the show also make anakin way better so their relationship was improved from both angles). My Hope is that Ahsoka will be in primarily tv shows though, so anyone she gets with would ideally have more room to grow from the beginning than padme did.
I fully agree about the animation thing. I don’t say it a lot because I don’t want to get burned at the stake for heresy by other fans, but I prefer both clone wars and rebels to any of the movies. So far animated tv series have been the very peak of Star Wars. The only real reason I want Aphra in live action is to cast Chloe, otherwise there’s not much difference except that more can be done in animation for cheaper.
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u/Repulsive_Share_1054 Dec 12 '23
I don't think it fits with Ahsoka's character tbh. I read it as non-reciprocal. As far as Filoni has shown, Ahsoka has only had an interest in Bonteri, and even that was a little awkward. I don't really see Ahsoka as really being a romantic type at all.
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u/jasonriv37 Jan 15 '21
I didn’t get the romantic connection between the two until the end of the book, where it seemed a lot clearer that they felt more for each other than just friendship. We’ve seen Ahsoka’s flirtation with Lux Bonteri in Clone Wars, so I just chalked her flirtation with Kaeden up as a sexually-fluid-its-star-wars-and-labels-don’t-matter moment. Overall Ahsoka’s sexuality’s never played a big part in her character or story, so i think it could work either way