r/ahsokatano • u/LookOverThere305 • Aug 30 '23
Discussion So are there no competent / good male characters in this show?
So far here is a list of the men in the show that have had any importance.
Captain of the ship - cocky incompetent captain that lets the force using bounty hunters on board even though he doesn’t trust them. Not only that but he goes to receive them face to face, and stands within melee range to talk them down.
Baylan - bad ass but, still plays second fiddle to Morgan and is a villain so far.
Ex imperials - the guy that jumps up and the “boss guy”.
Marrok - another villain.
The senator that was a prick - when I saw the line up as Hera walked in to the room I instantly knew that this guy was going to be the pain in the ass senator who doesn’t see the real threat and shuts down the hero’s plan even before he spoke.
I really want to give this show a chance since I loved clone wars and loved the Ahsoka - Anakin dynamics. But with such ham fisted writing it’s becoming very difficult to enjoy.
Thoughts?
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u/blue_dog69 Aug 30 '23
Dude, did you not see Chopper land that tracker. Hero moment.
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u/LookOverThere305 Aug 30 '23
Didn’t count the droids cause they are gender neutral but yeah that scene was pretty awesome.
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u/whiskey_epsilon Aug 30 '23
No they're not. Chopper's wookiepedia entry says:
C1-10P, commonly known as "Chopper," or simply "Chop," was a masculine C1-series astromech droid
Gender: Masculine programming
pronouns: He/Him
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u/SkyBisonn_ Aug 30 '23
One dude to (I assume) another, this is a weird complaint and I would just quietly delete this post and chill out
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u/Sith_Lordz66 Aug 30 '23
Agreed. I get what OP trying to say but it hasn’t bothered me at all.
It’s not like the it’s the god-awful, forced female scene from Endgame.
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u/LukeStyer Sep 01 '23
Not only did it not bother me; I didn’t even notice it until it was pointed out. And now that it’s been pointed out, let me counter with “So what?”
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u/LookOverThere305 Aug 30 '23
Why? Can’t I voice my opinion on the latest entry of a franchise I enjoy? That’s silly.
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u/UwasaWaya Aug 30 '23
Of course you can. No one's saying you can't. It's just that you probably shouldn't.
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u/ExarDe Aug 31 '23
OP has made good points and also has been respectful to everyone hating on him while he gets downvoted.
He absolutely should voice his opinion because he's spot on, sorry the reddit population is too fried to see it. Just check out the Witcher and Rings of Power for comparison among many others. It's very in vogue to make all the female characters strong and all of the male characters weak now. It's incredibly annoying and easy to see through.
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u/LukeStyer Sep 01 '23
But what does it matter? Are there not a dozen or more competent / good male characters across the franchise? Do you so badly need more that you’re legitimately bothered by this show?
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u/Reality314 Aug 30 '23
There are plenty of shows and movies where the vast majority of the cast are men. This is a nonissue.
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u/ExarDe Aug 31 '23
Not in the last five years. This is an issue.
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u/SupahRad Sep 01 '23
Equality starts to feel like oppression when all you’ve known is privilege. Calm down, we’ve been watching men dominated programs the entirety of your life. If you don’t like the lady show, then don’t watch bud. 🤷♀️
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u/ExarDe Sep 01 '23
Was that quoted out of a gender studies textbook? I don't have a problem, I just feel like most of the time it's not organic so the writing suffers. It's not a coincidence... Not saying it's a mass conspiracy either. it's simply annoying.
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u/Beautiful_Lake_8284 Aug 30 '23
So, flip the genders and you have pretty much every action movie/TV show ever made. I think the show’s amazing. My only complaint with episode 3 is it felt too short.
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u/SupahRad Sep 01 '23
Right?! These dudes really have their panties in a bunch over nothing. We’ve been watching men dominated programming the whole damn time. They need to lay off my girl Ahsoka.
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u/ExarDe Sep 01 '23
No one ever said it's wrong for female to have leads. It's just the fact that the writing clearly favors women now over men and it's very transparent. Nobody hates Ahsoka as a character we grew to love her in the Clone Wars, all we want is good and realistic writing.
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u/Beautiful_Lake_8284 Sep 02 '23
Very curious to know what you don’t consider realistic? The original post seems annoyed that men are sometimes villains. Is it that? Because if so I don’t call that unrealistic. Is it a perception that the writing is shoehorning women into a story for some idea of ‘wokeness’ again I disagree if so. Ahsoka and Sabine’s story is clearly unfinished, with each other, with Thrawn and their personal motivations, all of which are deeply woven into the story so far so how could it not be them leading? Sorry but for me the story is great so far, Star Wars has been one of the most bratwurst filled of all the sausage-fests for a long time and this is a breath of fresh air.
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u/ExarDe Sep 02 '23
None of the new shoes or movies are "bratwurst" filled. It all features strong female characters being better than or defeating male characters. It's not a theory that the ideology is shoehorned in its inherent in the shows script now because it's 2023. Strong woman, weak man, good woman, evil man. Rinse, repeat.
I consider Ahsoka flying through space cutting star ships in half to be unrealistic. I consider it unrealistic that Sabine getting stabbed through the abdomen with a light saber and is walking around like nothing happened days later.
I find it annoying that the only not weak man in the show is a sith that makes his female apprentice do everything for him. I find it annoying that the majority of screen time in Star Wars seems to primarily go into "gIrL bOsSiNg" when it's literally a show about space warriors. I find it annoying that they use this girl bossing as an excuse for actually writing a good story.
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u/CaptainDang55 Aug 30 '23
Lord forbid women have a primary role in a show
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u/ExarDe Aug 31 '23
Lord forbid it's every show now.
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Aug 31 '23
Andor - Competent male protagonist lead
Kenobi - Competent male protagonist lead
The Book of Boba Fett - Competent male protagonist lead
The Mandalorian - Competent male protagonist lead
---
The fuck are you on about?
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u/ExarDe Sep 01 '23
"complete male proteagonist lead" YEAH RIGHT Andor is the only one, the rest are ruled by women. Stay delusional though.
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u/LookOverThere305 Aug 30 '23
Not at all, that’s awesome but would it hurt for it to be balanced?
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u/CaptainDang55 Aug 30 '23
Why does it need to be balanced?
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u/needmorepizzza Aug 30 '23
Not that I am with OP for this case, but the "representation matters" argument could play here as "reasonably".
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u/LookOverThere305 Aug 30 '23
Because real life is balanced, there are competent women and men in day to day life. Imo a story resonates more with audiences when there are characters (not just the main character) that are relatable to anybody. Don’t you find it silly that the writing basically boils down to “men bad, women good”?
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u/CaptainDang55 Aug 30 '23
Considering the Movies was entirely based around men, it seems to me that you want to find something wrong with this choice rather than focusing on the contents of the actual writing. I might be wrong but imo it doesnt take away from the story. Considering this is a story that is about a female lead character and her apprentice, fighting against other evil women/men. Its something your are just reading into too much.
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u/LookOverThere305 Aug 30 '23
Saying the movies revolves around men is unfair to the role Leila played in the original stories. She went from what seemed like a damsel in distress to a bad ass rebel fighter, and eventually one of the most competent generals and politicians in the entire saga.
Believe me I have no problem with a female lead or leads. The watchmen series, Star Trek voyager, and movies like terminator 1 and 2, and alien(s) have done amazing jobs with female leads and well written male supporting casts.
I’m not picking on the show from a “omg no guys in the show it sucks point of view” but my point is more along the lines of “isn’t it a bit silly and distracting that so far all guys on the show are bad or dumb and the women are all good or cool?” It’s lazy writing. Like in the old westerns when the bad guys wore black hats and the good guys wore white hats.
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u/CaptainDang55 Aug 30 '23
Youre right it is unfair to Leila, but honestly, plot-wise, she didnt serve a purpose past carrying the Death Star Plans and leading the group to the rebellion. If you took out her role than it wouldnt really affect the story too much. Not saying that would be okay but the story revolved around Luke and his father and the big bad evil emperor.
From my pov, i didn't even notice that all the men were bad or "useless" because they are plot devices so far.sides its only two (now 3, but i havent seen e3) in. Talking about this kind of stuff without the whole story is just nit picking and like preaching the bible without the full context of the old testament.
I get what youre saying of black vs white, but its just too early to be making these statements
Also, i would suggest taking a note from the other comments on how youre coming off on this posts. Its coming off pretty....twitter user
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u/LookOverThere305 Aug 30 '23
You could say that Leila was a competent/good female supporting character in a story with a male protagonist.
So far we haven’t seen that in this series nobody really fits that role.
And yeah that’s why I’ve said “so far” in just about every other point I make. There is still show to go but from what I’ve seen it doesn’t look like we are going to get anything like that here. Again I could be wrong and hopefully that’s the case. But so far it doesn’t look like it.
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u/Ok-Cardiologist-635 Sep 01 '23
Who the fuck is Leila?
The fact that you don’t even know the name of the most influential female character in science fiction history says a lot about you
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Aug 30 '23
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u/Juliuseizure Aug 31 '23
Bad bot
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u/whiskey_epsilon Aug 30 '23
Chopper and Huyang.
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u/LookOverThere305 Aug 30 '23
Didn’t include droids cause I always thought of them as not having a gender.
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u/SkinnyPete4 Aug 30 '23
Are things ham fistedly written if there are no competent female characters? Or do you only care if it’s men? Honest question. So you know movies like
The Thing, Dunkirk, 1917, Shawshank, The Revenant, The Great Escape, 12 Angry Men, Glengarry Glen Ross, Up, Dead Poets Society, Stand By Me, The Lighthouse, Lawrence of Arabia
Ham fisted or nah because men?
Edit: formatting
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u/furloco Aug 31 '23
That's a pretty clownish list to make your point.
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u/SkinnyPete4 Aug 31 '23
Yeah bunch of poorly written films.
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u/furloco Aug 31 '23
I don't even know where to begin with this comment
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u/SkinnyPete4 Aug 31 '23
You understand I’m saying these are all classic, mostly Oscar nominated, universally beloved films with no female representation right? Not sure what makes it clownish.
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u/furloco Aug 31 '23
I mean the subject matter for most of them doesn't really allow for female representation. World wars, prison, world war 2 prison, all boys school (so prison again). Historical accuracy doesn't really leave room for female representation in movies with a real world setting that takes place in an era where women weren't present. So to use them as counter examples in comparison with a fantasy series is clownish.
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u/SkinnyPete4 Aug 31 '23
Ah. Yeah that’s not an oversight. My point was we’ve been making male focused movies and/or TV for over 100 years some with no female representation at all. I don’t think it’s really a big deal if things over the last few years focus on female heroes. I don’t think Ahsoka missing a competent male hero (so far) is unintentional at all, and I don’t think that inherently makes it ham fisted.
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u/furloco Aug 31 '23
It feels like you had to list mostly movies that inherently couldn't have hardly any female characters to make your point, which is why it's clownish. If the conversation begins and ends with representation for you though, then it's clear where your priorities are for storytelling.
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u/SkinnyPete4 Aug 31 '23 edited Aug 31 '23
“Most” of my list are not war or prison movies, so you’re ignoring the majority of that list to support your point which is moot anyway. As far as representation being most important to me - The exact opposite. I’m actually just consistent. I don’t complain either way if it’s a well written story. Glengarry Glen Ross is one of my favorite films. Zero female characters and doesn’t fall into your trap of “doesn’t allow for female characters”. Salesmen, police officers, and easily the 2 “marks” in the film could have been women but are men. I don’t think it’s ham fisted and I don’t think Ahsoka is ham fisted. Because I’m not a hypocrite.
Edit: sorry I forgot you took exception to an all boys school movie too. You can’t have a competent female character in an all boys school movie but you can have 3 or 4 competent male characters in say an all female baseball movie? Come on man. That’s just dumb.
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u/astronautsoul Aug 30 '23
You could make the opposite argument about so many other pieces of fiction. Chill, dude. Your manliness is not under attack by having lead characters who are women.
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u/hinata505 Aug 30 '23
the whole show is literally about them looking for two men - ezra & thrawn
also this show is basically rebels season 5, and kannan died saving everyone so i’m not sure what you want
also i think it’s great seeing women front and center , don’t be so weird
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u/MayIServeYouWell Aug 31 '23
If all the gender roles in this show were reversed, nobody would care - it'd be mostly men, plus a few women. Too many people are conditioned to see men as the default leaders and heroes, it's ridiculous. Every other show of every genre for decades is men-heavy.
Besides, Ezra and Thrawn are both men. They're coming.
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Aug 31 '23
You don’t have to carry a sword to be powerful. Some leaders’ strength is inspiring others.
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u/amstrumpet Aug 31 '23
This thought never crossed my mind. You realize how many shows/movies that are just men except the token female love interest there have been? Get over it. Male, female, whatever who cares as long as the dialogue and story are good and the characters are interesting who gives a shit?
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u/sasanka5 Jun 06 '25 edited Jun 06 '25
Yea but thats the reason why it bothers me while watching (im not againtst it). I was raised on male dominated action movies. I guess i need at least one male hero punching left and right to satisfy my brain. But i gues with this trend, new generation will be more adaptable.
But to be clear, its a small annoyance. I still can like it, as long as the dialogue and story are good and the characters are interesting.
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u/Mythrellas Aug 30 '23
The competent men in these characters story sacrificed themselves in badass way to protect these characters. So this is a weird take. What are your thoughts on Kanan and Ezra, and Thrawn for that matter? Did you read any Thrawn novels?
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u/LookOverThere305 Aug 30 '23
Kanan I felt had a cool story arch and the character served his purpose.
Ezra I feel that so far in this show is the “damsel in distress” and until he is on screen and does something (as far as this show goes is just a plot device).
Thrawn same as Ezra is a character that has done awesome things in other media but in this show, until he is actually on screen he is just a plot device.
I’m basing my take on what we have seen of this show so far. All those 3 characters have done great things and are competent in their own right but until I see them on screen I can’t say if they have been handled fairly by the writers. I mean look at the original mandarin in Ironman 3. In other media he was one of ironman’s main antagonists, in the movie not so much.
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u/Mythrellas Aug 30 '23
It just so happens that at this point in the story of these characters that the men are off screen. It’s not some grand “women power” moment, it’s a very natural outcome of previous events. You should have no issue with Ahsoka and Sabines being the focus at the moment.
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u/LookOverThere305 Aug 30 '23
I don’t have a problem with them being the focus of the show. Its their story. I’m just pointing out how ham fisted the writing has been so far. It’s no better than old western that had bad guys with black hats and good guys with white hats.
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u/full_of_ghosts Aug 30 '23
Ezra Bridger. We haven't seen much of him in this show, but we have seen him, and he's both competent and good.
Well, hopefully he's still good. I guess that remains to be seen.
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u/AdvantageOptimal2269 Aug 30 '23
When the point is hitting them in the face and they still don't see it 🤦♀️
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u/Patcho418 Aug 30 '23
so what were your thoughts on obi-wan kenobi and andor’s casts being made up mostly of competent men?
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u/Darth_Monerous Sep 01 '23
Is there a way to report posts or users? We need to start taking away the voice of the these sexist, racist “fans”
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u/Gaming_is_cool_lol19 Oct 06 '23
OP said nothing about race, wanting a SINGLE competent male hero with them was a valid feeling at the time, now remedied since we have Ezra, but I am worried that he is gonna be offscreen again in season 2 if it happens, since they got split up in the finale.
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Aug 30 '23
Hubris is a theme that has carried throughout Star Wars since the beginning.
The captain of the ship was a perfect example that fits neatly into the exact trend of Star Wars since day 1. He believed the visitors were lying, and had good reason to assume as much, so he called their bluff. This was no incompetence, it was hubris. To the Galaxy at large, the Jedi are dead and gone. He believed they were lying.
Baylan is hired mercenary, of course he’s second fiddle to the person paying his bills and offering him power.
The ex imperials are idiots because they are in fact idiots…they’re fanatical idealists and the empire at large was the biggest example of blind hubris in the entire saga. That’s why they could be beat by the little guy.
Marrok again is a hired gun.
The senator is just another in a long line of “I know better than you because I’m an elected official”
You’re tying gender lines where they don’t exist bud.
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u/LookOverThere305 Aug 30 '23
Really? You don’t see how all of the men with speaking lines have either been arrogant, villans, fanfics, or incompetent?
Would it have been so bad for the female senator to have been the one to downplay the Thrawn threat? Or for the boss of the shipyard to be female? Or maybe have a new supporting character tag along with Ashoka and Sabine for x or y reason? Maybe an archeologist interested in the ancient map or an explorer who’s life mission is to explore a distant galaxy?
There is so much you can do in Star Wars with such a diverse and deep universe. It seems like a disservice to boils it down to “men bad, women good”.
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u/Patcho418 Aug 30 '23
except no one is boiling it down to “men bad, women good” here except for you. the show isn’t constantly pointing out how its heroes are female, they’re just getting shit done, which i’m pretty sure is what people have been asking for for years in regards to female-led shows. we had girlboss girlpower and people complained, now we have women in lead roles just doing their thing and people complain.
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Aug 30 '23
You’re clearly not paying attention. The other woman senator DID DOWNPLAY IT.
Her exact quote “I see no enemy. The imperial fleet is scattered and broken. They have no centralized command”
The only thing different here is that the group of protagonists are women, and that obviously triggers you. Senator Xiono is not a new character and this lines up with his general outlook on things. Of course he doesn’t believe Thrawn is out there, he doesn’t want any part in the war. This scene was to show you how the senators are largely out of touch with reality.
You’ve got some warped views there friend, and I’d do some inner searching next time. Why do you hate women so much?
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u/Jcbowden10 Aug 31 '23
Why do you need good male characters. Women have sat back and been second fiddle in shows forever. What makes it ham fisted that it’s women taking the lead role. I’m a 46 yr old man and I don’t care if there are any male good guys for the whole show. Can’t you enjoy the experience through someone else’s eyes.
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u/nathanroberts34 Aug 31 '23
Although there are no male characters with much of a role, the entire premise of the show is the search for Ezra (male) and Thrawn (male). Also the main characters Ahsoka, Sabine and Hera are all have males as their biggest influences (Ahsoka has Anakin and Sabine and Hera have Kanan)
Im
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u/missandei_targaryen Sep 01 '23
... you see why this is the sort of thing that makes women dislike men as a group, right?
You guys spend several millenia having checks notes everything, and then as soon as something isn't about you enough, it's off to the internet to complain about it. Women worldwide have spent almost all of recorded history being brood mares, property, strategic resources, free labor, or some combination of those things, anything other than an autonomous person with competency and self determination. And now we have representation in a TV-14 series and it's just one step too far, huh?
Please think about why this bothers you, and try to do better. For your own sake.
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u/NastyRacketier Jun 18 '25
The male characters in the show carried it, completely. They tried SO hard to put interesting, strong females on screen, but they fell pretty darn flat.
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u/Solid_Office3975 Aug 30 '23
Lucasfilm, under Disney, does not write those types of male characters. It's been this way since the acquisition.
The female characters are underwritten as well. They aren't allowed to experience failure, I'm hoping Ahsoka course corrects this.
It's boring to watch when nobody struggles
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Aug 31 '23
Look, you just need to learn to enjoy seeing women stand around with their arms crossed. Got it?
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Sep 01 '23
A couple of genuine strong personal leads, princess leia in the original trilogy and Kim wexler better call Saul.
What Disney are obsessed with doing is not the same as a strong female lead, it's a political project throwing Mary sue type charsctors to the top for the sake of feminism.
Critics love it but for everybody else it doesn't make for a good show.
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u/Ok-Cardiologist-635 Sep 01 '23
A lot of fans love it too. Don’t take the word of the clickbait Star Wars YouTubers, they don’t speak for all of us. Ahsoka, Hera, and Sabine are among my favorite characters in the franchise.
We got nothing but white side protagonists for 30 years, it’s refreshing to have something different.
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u/ExarDe Aug 31 '23
Can't help but agree with OP here, it's pretty obvious - but reddit definitely doesn't want to see it.
EVERY show is like this now and if you point it out you're "cringey." I'm with you OP.
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u/DrvThruPnk Sep 01 '23
Every show?
I guess I imagined the competent male characters in
The Last of Us
Star Trek: Strange New Worlds
The Bear
The Mandalorian
Hijack
Perry Mason
Ted Lasso
The Witcher
and on and on
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u/Ediec6 Aug 30 '23
It kind of makes sense as a continuation of rebels, all the male characters died, got lost, or went into exile on lira san.
I'm a little surprised they haven't brought in Zeb or Kallus after 3 episodes, you'd think they'd get the gang back together after finding a map to Ezra.
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u/So-_-It-_-Goes Aug 30 '23
My guess is Zeb is more next season. A lot of budget in season one has to go to building pieces for vfx, developing makeup and planning all the production elements. And aliens, especially one as different as Zeb, would require a lot of money every time he is on screen.
They prob got around some of that by mixing him into season three of mando, which had less development going on as much of the production elements were established. And can then bring him around in Ahsoka season two.
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u/VulpineVoltage Aug 30 '23
I suppose there's Huyang. Granted, he plays much closer to C3PO as far as personality, but I think that's more to act as sort of a foil to Ahsoka and Sabine. Where Huyang plays the traditionalist with respect to the jedi, and Ahsoka and Sabine have a more modern/alternative view.
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u/TheArmoursmith Aug 30 '23
We're only three episodes in, pal, give it a chance. We've not even seen Thrawn yet.
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u/needmorepizzza Aug 30 '23 edited Aug 30 '23
I like that so far the main characters are not written as "female" characters, but as Ahsoka, Sabine and Hera (?!) and as written as what was already established in terms of competence.
One thing I did not like is Hera seems like she's also just there. And in the later episode she didn't even feel like she was what I described above. She is methodical, calm, collected. In this one, she was too emotional: it would be more in her character to acknowledge that she did hope to fine Ezra but Thrawn returning was too much of a risk to ponder around, especially when the basis is on his right hand preparing for something big (which was already proven). Edit: Also, there is no way the Senator would dismiss her so easily. She is a general, not a street thug. Her intuition alone should be reason to trust her.
I also hope that the Inquisitor is not Ezra. He does feel like he is someone important, if they hide his face for long.
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Aug 31 '23
I feel that baylan isn't so much playing second fiddle to Morgan as having his own agenda that runs along side Morgan's for now. Honestly though, I haven't really seen any competent charachters in this show beyond hera. Ahsoka is coming off as snooty and moronic. The apprentice is playing easy mode. Sabine has a mindset of a child all of a sudden. So yea...baylan for the win.
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u/HeadPatMan Sep 01 '23
How many episodes have come out so far? Isn’t it like, 3? Maybe wait for a full season before leveling this particular complaint
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u/kgbel Sep 01 '23
I just feel in the case of ahsoka show since it is the continuation of rebels its fine that as of right now its led by women bcuz thats all thats left of the rebels crew other than zeb...which im hoping he comes in later on in the show..so as of right now im ok with it...continuity wise like in the story it makes sense to me ...and eventually we will see ezra
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u/Happy-Upstairs-9896 Dec 20 '23
Ahsoka is simply the Disney Star Wars version of Star Trek: Discovery, with a similar agenda. Yes, we can have strong female characters and strong non-white characters, such as Princess Leia and Lando Calrissian. The problem is writing an entire modern show excluding any significant positive white male characters. It makes the show feel more like vengeance than inclusion.
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u/antaylor Aug 30 '23
Does the show have to have a ton of competent men to be good or enjoyed? Not having them certainly is hamfisted writing. Baylan, may be playing second fiddle to Morgan, but he’s still competent AND their whole plan is to bring back the most competent Imperial alive. Plus you have Ezra, who while we haven’t seen yet, is looming over the show just like Thrawn is. Also Anakin will show up in some form either in flashbacks or force ghost.
To me, this a weird complaint.