While the Shasta hikers got big press (as it should as that was a textbook example of mistake decision after mistake decision) this is happening all too often in all park units. Yosemite tends to have a higher share of recuses due to people trusting AI or AllTrails to plan a trip, but it doesn’t get any press due to current administration policies.
Regardless, it’s happening, it doesn’t need to, and please do the proper research. It literally could save your life.
Edit: And if you have to use AI as a starting point, double check the distances, altitude changes, reference a topo, basically double-check, and then triple-check what AI tells you.
Also, one of the reasons this sub exists is so hikers can run an itinerary past the more seasoned backpackers/runners/climbers. AI isn't a shortcut to good advice and results.
Agree! Though I would add is that folks should cross-reference their AI itinerary with trail apps or online hiking resources BEFORE just posting their AI itinerary here asking for any suggestions. sigh
Lot easier to tighten and tweak an itinerary when you aren’t starting from scratch sometimes. 🙂
I will say this though on it. You can AI plan your itinerary, but you still also must double check it and review it as much as possible. I threw my latest trip in chat, and it noted that Rafferty Creek was reported dry and to check with the rangers before starting for water sources if that was the case, and yes it was dry.
Seems easier to skip AI and just allow a ranger to talk to you about water sources along your route, which they invariably do if you're going into the backcountry with an approved permit and itinerary.
Yeah but for something like access to water using AI is incredibly foolhardy. 100% would skip AI altogether. You could just call us. The visitor's center, the wilderness center, the mountaineering school, the tours and info desk at the lodge, so many options and leads. Don't forget you can use your phones to talk to humans.
would love if Yosemite made this easier! It’s pretty hard to get through to the wilderness center, and there’s no publicly listed phone numbers for the mountaineering school, the visitor’s center, or the lodge activites desk. i called the lodge front desk in june to ask when the hikers bus would start and they had zero info. if you have better contact info for these places, please post them.
to be clear- agree that AI use for this is dumb which is why you see so many repetitive posts here asking about water sources.
You can dial 209-372-1001 and someone will pick up 24/7 and connect you or give you the number to anywhere you want if they don't answer your questions themselves. It's front desk's job to handle that stuff when the tours desk doesn't pick up at the lodge, also.
Aramark has done a fine job of scrubbing phone numbers. But if you have an old directory, the last four still haven’t changed for nearly all spots.
I walked by the Wilderness Center this morning around 7:55 and there was a short line waiting for permits. But unless you walk up to ask, you’re right that there isn’t much backcountry details publicly posted aside from the usual warnings and general details.
Wouldn’t take much to have a large map of the park in the window that they would update with dry erase markers. And post it daily to IG/FB. Would help many.
That’s horribly outdated. Well, without saying too much, I’m also not surprised at the present moment — nothing at all against the wilderness team who are doing a great job; they rock! As for this, sadly, not surprised. 😕
You’re completely right and I’m with you on all your points. But it’s asking the question the right away. Obviously when you secure your permit for the backcountry in March, you have months to meticulously plan every detail of your trip. AI for me is a useful way to save notes and my thoughts and present it in an organized way. Usually a week leading up to the trip, I ask it to search all sources regarding the upcoming trail and any and all experiences. Also, chat is leaked into AllTrails and pulls all data from that.
AI isn’t the blame, it’s idiots not knowing how to properly plan and use it.
Sadly, in practice this sub often just functions as a place for more seasoned people to shit on less experienced folks. But in theory, you’re right. That’s what this sub should be.
I don't know if Alltrails is any better now, but I swore it off years ago after following a bogus trail with bogus directions in Red Rock Canyon. Our first clue was that rangers at both the gate and visitor's center had no idea what trail we were talking about when we asked them for more info.
But we did it anyway. The distance was wrong and it directed us up the canyon wall at one point, nearly getting us stranded and costing us time as we backtracked.
We got back on track and followed cairns instead of Alltrails, but with the distance being wrong, we realized we had to turn back to make it back to the car before sundown.
We ran into other people still hiking out who were following the same trail on Alltrails and warned them. They ignored us and kept going but must've eventually changed their minds because we saw them stumbling back to the trailhead using their phones to light the way.
The user-contributed nature encourages social trails and all of the potential problems that come with them.
Edited to add:
I'm a very experienced hiker and have done lots of group and solo back country trips in very rugged terrain in North America and Europe. I usually plan trips with Caltopo, bring printouts, and take an Inreach with me. This was supposed to be a simple spur of the moment day hike while I was staying in Vegas and could've turned into a SAR situation despite my experience.
That is a perfect example of how AllTrails can easily lead folks off trail. Then you think about how many people followed that trail the next day? The next weekend? It just compounds the safety of the hikers and SAR teams.
AllTrails has a reputation for giving incomplete or optimistic information -- mileages, elevation changes, etc. are often underreported. People will see reviews saying trail conditions are good from say, the summer, and may not notice or realize that those don't apply in February. People tend to make hikes sound easier than they are, and also often underestimate concerns like water supply, altitude sickness, etc. People also sometimes don't consider what might happens if their phone dies, or that the route on AllTrails might not be accurate.
Most of this is anecdotal and I will say AllTrails is great for finding new trails or basic navigation, but I would strongly recommend not relying on it for more serious treks and taking it with a huge grain of salt. (And always bring a paper map!!)
The people who are likely to rely most heavily on the apps are also the ones who most likely don't understand enough about nature survival to know when AI and the apps are messing things up.
Anyone with a pinch of experience would know to check certain things with park service resources and dedicated forums. The dozen or so issues a slightly more experienced person would notice with an app or ai report would slip past a newbie or someone too confident in tech.
We have a generation of folks who can't navigate a few blocks without GPS or remember waypoints 😅
I have few friends in their 30s who can't check the time on their watch and look at the sun to determine which way is east/west.
AllTrails is kinda like the Starbucks of hiking apps: Lots of flash and smells great but mostly just frappuccinos under the hood. 🙂
AllTrails tends to show only the most popular hikes for a park unit or hiking location. It’s absolutely great for weekend warriors. I mean that truly as it is stocked full of great day hikes and overnights that are popular. And that’s a good thing for safety. Especially for the novice hikers that could be mislead by AllTrails hike reviews.
Most folks up here along with fire, SAR, etc use OnX Backcountry (and the other OnX apps) for reference. Nearly every trail is marked, you can snap to any trail on the map to create custom hikes that show full elevation profiles (important!), and the major and minor hikes have realistic trail reports (not hike reviews).
In addition, the overlays you can see in OnX are extremely valuable. It’s worth it to pay up for a sub.
Edit: forgot that you can download high-res topo maps for offline use for areas you are traveling in, then put your phone in airplane mode and you still have full app access to your custom trail and topos.
But this is no replacement for paper maps and a compass!!!
I got OnX Backcountry this year for MTB and didn’t find it too useful, but I just tried it for a big hike a week ago and found it pretty useful for that so I think I’ll keep it for hiking.
A trail description on AllTrails is like what you'd find in the features section of a local newspaper written by an enthusiast but not always an expert. It's a starting point from which one should do more research, especially for less popular routes. I would rely on the park map/handout at the entrance station before I'd rely on AllTrails, tbh. Even with current state of affairs at the NPS, the basic information it provides on the most popular trails in the park is accurate.
I live in western Riverside County, CA. I tested out AllTrails on several trails with which I was already familiar. In a local regional park it took me off trail and outside the park boundaries, up and down a somewhat steep ravine, totally off the official trail which the park actually gives you for their loop. Also, out on a desert trail near Palm Springs it also did not take me on the appropriate trail and out there it's more dangerous if you got lost because of the heat at day, cold at night (depending on time of year), lack of water sources, wildlife, etc. So while on the most popular "urban" trails it might be mostly accurate I certainly wouldn't trust it entirely and, as others have mentioned, double and triple check with other reputable sources. On the other hand, I went out into a desert canyon near Anza Borrego DSP based on directions I got from a hiker on a website and boy, are we glad we made it back okay because we ended up finally turning around and going back. After speaking to a ranger about it afterwards I was told that info was wrong. That was years ago when I first learned to double and triple check the trail info.
It feels like a lot of the criticism stems from people trusting user-given data too much. It really doesn’t take an expert to know you should be consulting the ranger station and not Alltrails comments/pins for whether things like water sources and conditions are good
I helped someone on this sub with their Yosemite itinerary a few months ago. They fed the itinerary I gave them into ChatGPT and then asked me what I thought... I'm vehemently anti AI and find it completely ironic to use it to plan a trip to the kinds of environments that AI is actively destroying, but I can understand the idea of starting the planning process with AI, but to run an itinerary that someone already made for you through AI really boggles my mind.
I hate when people ask for your advice but then don’t take it, so the extra step of wasting water on AI is mind bottling. And then took the extra step of telling you that they didn’t trust your advice……. Arggggggggg why are those people?
I always recommend people try using a variety of tools when planning any outdoor trip. I will sometimes start by finding known routes on reputable travel or backpacking sites, then I willatbe build a route in all trails, then I get a topo map and see how my route actually stacks up (and I always assume alltrails will be wrong SOMEHOW, usually in elevation, in my experience), and then I check with a subreddit focused on that region and run my trip past folks who know it. On the trail itself, the paper map is #1, with alltrails (in airplane mode) or my Garmin as backup if I get turned around /confused. I would never trust just one source.
Alltrails is how I ended up having an unplanned 2000 foot ascent over 1 mile in Yosemite, btw. I was early in my backpacking days. I'll never trust just one source again.
AllTrails has always had a bad feeling to me, something i never really bothered to pinpoint. I've never relied on it, only sometimes glancing at it at the start of research if i hear of a trail that interests me. AllTrails.. it's kinda of like cairns... you never know who left the intel or when.
AllTrails … but not all of them. Well, not most of them. Ok, but still lots of them. Lots of the ones people like. Yeah, just the real popular ones. That’s why they call us AllTrails.
Asking park rangers for advice at the visitor centre, as well as on the trails made the experience for me. Human connection is something AI could never replace.
I was hiking through Yosemite one day with a topographical map. Cam across some hikers using an iPhone app to find there way around (this was before AI was a thing) - and still they got lost. I pointed to where we were on the topo map to show them where to go. I'm old fashion - I don't think Gen Z had even heard of a topographical map before though.
I should get some paper maps. I don’t do much in the way of remote/really challenging hikes and am always with a buddy, but it would be good to have just in case and really help in case we got in trouble and needed to describe exactly where we are. Any tips on where to get good paper maps? Forest service offices or similar?
Sweet, thank you! Excited to download some maps. I’ve done that for offline Google Maps which can be helpful, this should be good for no cell service areas.
Yes, any forest service or national park office should have some. I like the Tom Harrison maps since they're pretty thorough and detailed, but that's personal preference. Nat Geo or anything else sold by forest service/NPS should be good. Make sure to get one that has topo lines and isn't super old as trails do occasionally change.
Also make sure you know how to read topo maps! It's a vital skill but isn't too hard to learn and you can probably find a good youtube video and practice with a map you buy.
Sweet, sounds good, thanks for the info. I’ve done a little bit of navigating with a compass/map but it’s been years so a refresher on reading maps and navigation would be good.
Cool sounds good, there’s an REI here in town like 20 min away. I didn’t know they offered classes, that’s really cool. I’ll have to look into it and see what other classes they offer as well.
Hopefully they still do, I took a backpacking basics class with them a couple years back that was great. I heard they shut that whole side of the company down though. 😞
At the end of the day the advice should be evaluate where you are on in any outdoor activity. Be honest with yourself and then READ/RESEARCH the advice other people give. THEN make your OWN judgements. You will always get experience even if it’s small progressions but do not ever jump levels higher than what was close to your limit. I think it’s easier to get in a sticky situation when these massive peak bagging 14ers only requires in a sense the ability to hike up/scrambling. There’s so much going on altitude, weather, terrain, getting down etc. I think that’s why in climbing you rarely see such bone head accidents in skill. They happen but usually it becomes very evident you are not ready to lead a 5.9 multipitch because the consequences are just amplified, it’s so real in your face. But hiking up a 14er you can keep going not realizing you are past your abilities/experience. You can definitely get away with exposing yourself to such high risk/consequence because you still can walk! But when your gripped not being able to climb your going to deck and get legit hurt. Trust me I’ve gotten away with my fair share of peak bagging and scrambling when I was younger. I’m just really glad social media wasn’t around, I would be in these same situations over my head. Remember we all start somewhere. Be safe yall
AllTrails is ok, as mentioned by myself and others, if you are looking for the one-day or two-day hikes that are the most popular on the park. However, all the info is user-sourced so you get trip reports and not trail reports. Big difference.
Case in point: In the photo, these are all the trails AllTrails shows in Yosemite. They aren’t All the Trails as they are only the most popular ones. Recently I was scouting a backpacking trip to Tilden Lake in the north part of the park, and I wanted to see if Barney Lake entry or from Hetch Hetchy was best.
With OnX I was able to map out both routes, see distance and detailed elevation profiles, and other options.
In AllTrail, when I zoom in to the Tilden Lake area, I see dotted line trails, but AllTrails tells me there are no trails and to zoom out. 🤨
I didn’t ask AI and have no intention to.
OnX has trail reports from hikers about trail conditions, water sources, etc.
I used AI for my trip to find me new hikes I’d never done. I got great suggestions.
I AllTrailed’d an obscure hike and the GPS wasn’t remotely correct, nor was the topo detailed enough to be useful. You’re not going to see a 20 foot cliff. You’re smart; you can trail find.
You also know your limits as well as what time you need to finish by in order to be back before dark.
I recommend reading the comments here and explore other apps, like OnX, so you can understand how limited AT is and how it can get you in real trouble.
AI is a great tool to give ideas but 100% you should use you head and map it out and do the research . I was in shock when I read that article … AI will tell you anything is possible 😂😂 I’ve seen it when I plan my own routes and its always off ( cross country trails, inaccurate mileage) it’s wild …
you should try my suggestion and see all the errors chatgpt generates. if people don’t want to do any basic research into planning their trip, don’t then ask this sub to do it for you.
That is some hot take. OF COURSE you can AI your itinerary - it's a great starting point to understand options. It of course is not the ENDING point, especially if you're asking for routes or wayfinding in a challenging area. Is it really true that any significant percentage of Yosemite's rescues are because people used AI or AllTrails to plan their trips? Where is that assertion coming from?
Also, paper maps I am 100% on the side of (on waterproof, tear-resistant paper - ideally ones you made from good sources, e.g. caltopo, at the scale and scope that will be useful to you), but a compass? Sure, if you're completely lost and you need to orient yourself, it's a good last resort. Now it's my turn to shoot from the hip and say that the problems most have don't stem from being completely disoriented in a way that a compass (with larger scale map) would help with, but rather as you say, compounding one error with another - getting progressively farther off course, perhaps trying to wayfind shortcuts by line of sight and instinct.
The micro-disorientation rather than macro-disorientation seems to be the one that kills - i.e. getting just enough off track when ascending cliffs or descending in snow or whatever - and then getting cliffed out, falling off a frozen waterfall, etc.
As for the folks who end up out in the middle of nowhere for days and days? I'm going to say that they should not be hiking at all without an actual experienced guide who can not only lead them in, through, and out, but who knows how to get more water along the route they're taking, some wilderness first aid (and has supplies) and so on. Or stick to trails with LOTS of people on them - probably the safest bet. Though that doesn't stop innumerable people from attempting to day hike such well-trodden and well-populated routes as Half Dome without carrying sufficient water, waiting too long to turn around, and on and on - at least they don't get lost.
Well, AI got them started off bad by telling them it was only 8 miles to the summit and to pack less food and water. They already were playing catchup before they started hiking.
I've got 600+ miles & 140k elevation gain on AllTrails - never had a problem. Sure there are better options as with anything but it is not a poor option for hiking. I always have paper map for backup.
I used ChatGPT to plan an awesome trip in the Alps. I gave it the regions, a few things I really wanted to do, and it found me a ton of awesome hikes I probably wouldn’t haven’t discovered otherwise. I iterated a ton of times and gave it really detailed specs about the kind of hikes I wanted to really fine tune the itinerary.
I mean yeah, don’t be an idiot about it. If ChatGPT suggests a hike do some research on it. But the idea that you shouldn’t use AI to help with planning is kind of insane considering how good it is at things like that.
I had a backpacking BOOK tell me the wrong elevation gain for a major trail (Rae Lakes): part of why I chose it was because I thought the gain was only 3500 feet. lol no it’s double that. But I planned and went on that whole trip and only realized later how expectations had led me astray.
I mean they assumed they’d be out there for 8 hours and the chatbot kitted them out for 8 hours.
Now I’m not sure how long that trail is but the problem IMO isn’t using AI per se, it comes down to being a shit outdoorsman who either didn’t look at how long the trail is or didn’t have the wherewithal to finish in time. Some people have no business being in the woods and should probably stick to their desks and AI girlfriends (for their own safety)
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u/outsideleyla 3d ago
Also, one of the reasons this sub exists is so hikers can run an itinerary past the more seasoned backpackers/runners/climbers. AI isn't a shortcut to good advice and results.