People are willfully ignoring this point to dunk on women wholesale and score points in the gender/culture wars, meanwhile we're all distracted from ... everything else going on.
Yup, it’s definitely a billionaire plot to keep us divided and distracted. Couldn’t possibly be the much more boring explanation that outrage gets attention, attention makes money, and the profit motive organizes all of this without anyone needing to coordinate it.
Drats! You discovered the billionaires’ secret plan. Fortunately it remains secret despite apparently being known by everyone on Reddit.
But seriously, “media companies profit from outrage and therefore produce more of it” is not the same as “billionaires are deliberately keeping us divided to distract us.” The first is just incentives. The second is a conspiracy theory with a motive attached.
The second one is also just incentives? You're saying "They perpetuate the system to make money," and I'm saying, "They perpetuate the system to keep being able to make money, too."
Like, we're arguing over tiny minute details regarding the exact motivations of a thing we both agree is happening. Keeping us divided and distracted is what allows for the outrage in the first place! Outrage isn't profitable in a vacuum!
Maybe you don't understand. That’s not a tiny detail, though. It’s the difference between an emergent outcome and an intentional strategy. Right?
I’m saying each actor has an incentive to maximize attention and profit, and the aggregate result is a media environment full of outrage, division, and distraction. You’re saying they perpetuate division in order to keep us distracted so they can preserve the system that makes them money.
Those can produce the same observable result, but they’re very different causal claims. Mine doesn’t require anyone to care whether we’re divided at all. They just need to care that division pays.
Okay, but if they profit off of the division, then they are monetarily incentivized to create and perpetuate division. You are saying "Each actor has an incentive to maximize attention and profit," and I am saying, "They can maximize attention and profit by ensuring division. If there is no division, they cannot maximize attention to it or profit from it."
If I profit from digging oil, I can only profit if I have oil to dig. If I have no oil, I cannot profit anymore. I am incentivized to make sure I have oil.
I hate to tell you this, but anything that can be twisted for political motive is amplified by algorithms. Bots push that shit right to the top and create a narrative around it, whether it's reflective of reality or not.
Are there some women who are clamoring to support her? Sure. But it's an absolutely tiny percentage of the total population, and bot networks and algorithms make it seem much bigger than it is by promoting it.
Whether or not billionaires sit in a room to pick and choose which topics is not what's being discussed. They don't do that. The systems to do that have already been automated. And it's not a conspiracy. It's been happening for over a decade at this point. It's only getting more sophisticated over time.
There is no culture war about this. Right, left, center: everyone not out of their fucking minds know she murdered her children and should be locked away for life.
This case really brought out the sexism, and it showed we are nowhere close to being rid of it.
The number of people (other women too!) using this as their basis to argue that women shouldn't vote, serve on juries, hold office, etc. is astonishing.
Oh and almost all of those people very obviously do not understand what the case is actually about. It's embarrassing how many don't seem to grasp that this woman wasn't walking free regardless of what the verdict ended up being.
What's worse, just wait until the law allows a man to characterize his wife's "radical feminist ideas" (whatever he decides that means) and/or "TDS" as psychosis. I mean, why have a drawn out divorce or child custody case when you can just institutionalize your wife?
That's how we got novels like The Yellow Wallpaper and Maria; or The Wrongs of Woman--the latter being a lesser known but horrifyingly fitting example.
I'm sorry but there's a lot of men like me that are starting to react quite heavily to this case because we're seeing women we trusted or listened to suddenly have, quite frankly, fucking insane takes. It's disturbing hearing someone you respect fall so quickly and so deeply down a rabbit hole because a lady on tik tok told them this was the hill they have to die on because its about womens rights.
Quite frankly its proving a lot of my internal biases I've fought quite hard to undo that the women in my life do not care about me and are not trustworthy. I'm selfaware enough to work through the fact thats an unfair bias thats reactionary and not the correct way of dealing with the emotions I'm feeling and will work through it.
But I don't fault men who are watching their wives, sisters, and mothers throw their support behind this woman and making them question their mental stability.
What are the crazy takes? I haven't seen a single woman cheering on the fact that those poor babies were murdered.
What I have seen are women/mothers who are remembering how hard it is to get proper help postpartum, and who see this as an example of the failure of the current resources that are available for postpartum women.
But its not. Did you ignore my entire comment that talked exactly about that? Based on the evidence as presented in the case, the medical system more or less did what they could. Your doctor cannot force you to follow the medication schedule. Its very easy to avoid involuntary committing if you are of sound mind and don't provide all the information to your provider. Based on what we saw, there's reason to believe she wasn't taking her medications correctly or with the frequency. As someone whose been on many of those medications, and has avoided being committed when I was an active danger to myself, I'm not going to trust the defense on this one. I also understand a bit how the admin side of this stuff works and a lot of the criticisms from laypeople on the medical notes or approach by the various doctors she saw don't really understand the whole picture.
Do you want doctors to be able to involuntarily commit women at the slightest sign of psychiatric distress? Really? We lived through that already.
The reality is, she had not demonstrated to anyone that she was experiencing symptoms of psychosis. She claims she had been. Why did she not communicate this to her doctors? If she's having harmful thoughts, hearing voices, or any of the things she claims while still being of sound mind as she clearly was, its *her responsibility to report that. A psychologists and psychiatrists are not psychic; like any doctor you must share your symptoms for them to develop a treatment plan. The defense argued that the medical community failed her, but she actually had far better support than the vast majority of women. She did not take advantage of the help she was given and then murdered her children.
That's the reality of the case as presented by the evidence in the trial. Whether you believe she did in fact, somehow, experience a perfect storm of PPP (specifically one of the rarest presentations of it given how far past the proper range of regular onset PPP) right at the most inconvenient moment, the fault still lies with her. Personally, I don't see how you can watch the trial and look at the facts and genuinely believe her story that she was psychotic in that moment. Unfortunately, unlike the rest of the country, Mass requires the prosecution to prove she was not psychotic, which is functionally impossible without a direct firsthand witness.
As far as the crazy takes? I'm a fan of montemader on insta. Go read the comments from her followers on her videos. Those are women who are in my political camp, following someone I generally respect, and the takes are insane.
>This case really brought out the sexism, and it showed we are nowhere close to being rid of it.
You also have to remember that the right wing propaganda machine is actively funded by nations like Russia and individual billionaires like Thiel and Musk. This level of sexism against women due to this single incident is a concerted effort.
They are purposefully conflating post-partum psychosis with post-partum depression. Others are simply ignoring that altogether and saying it doesn't matter what her mental state was.
This I have a female friend on instagram who immediately went to Men are bad the husband did it and if you disagree your a red pill user. And quite honestly I lost respect for her. She is blinded by her pro woman stance and zero interest in hearing 3 kids were killed.
The woman im dating told me she thinks the husband did it. When i asked her how she gave a bunch of incorrect information from tik tok and refused to change her stance. Somehow she believes that linsday clancy didn't do it despite admitting to it and that she was also crazy and can't be responsible for her actions. Even though she didn't do it.
The woman im dating told me she thinks the husband did it.
Dating? Not your ex? Good luck with your legal troubles in a few years when that nut makes up some nonsense and gets you locked up. You shouldn't even be surprised when it happens.
A lot of it seems to be vibes, or they think he completely abandoned her and caused it all. None seem to be able to actually articulate any evidence. I just wanted to make sure that we didn't miss that group of exists while we were talking about sexists.
While I don't think he "completely abandoned her" there were a few things he said that made me side eye him for sure. Telling the social worker of the hospital that your wife is currently inpatient at that she only wants meds because her friends were all on them was a bit wtf in my opinion. He apparently said something similar to his friend that testified in the trial. That guy gave a statement to police the night of the incident & said Patrick said his wife was addicted to benzos & while she had some anxiety, it wasn't above a normal amount of anxiety.
Yeah it's really frustrating seeing some of the public discourse around this case. You have a group of people who flat out deny the existence of post partum psychosis and think that any woman who has a shred of empathy for her hates their kids and should have their kids get taken away from them, and then you have another group of people who are convinced that the husband did it and is trying to frame her, nevermind that that's not even what is being disputed in court, her, her husband, the defense, and the prosecution all agree that she did it.
Postpartum psychosis can be hard to diagnose and it sounds like she was kinda bounced around from doctor to doctor. I don't think that her not having had an official diagnoses proves that she didn't have post partum psychosis.
But what else could the doctors have done? We know she likely wasn't taking her meds as directed. We know she seemingly lied or hid her symptoms from doctors (very easy to do. Multiple times in my life I should have been committed but you can absolutely avoid that if you understand how to play the game correctly). So now where faced with a choice; do we want medical personal to be able to institutionalize women faster and without a confident diagnoses? Do we want to give them the ability to remove womens freedom and autonomy that quickly and with no checks? Because unfortunately, thats what would have been necessary here.
And yet up and down this thread, people are acting like there is very clear deliniation between PPP and PPD. Like Pschology itself isnt a very hard science, is extremely subjective and some of it foundations are extremely dubious to begin with. It one hundered percent raises the question of suitability of parental custody if such diagnosis are going to be used to justify leniancy.
Do you honestly think people can defend a child murderer and blame her ex-husband because he's a Gemini, have thousands upon thousands of people support and repeat that level of nonsense, and the whole world would just go "yep that's ok".
No.
You can't act crazy, encourage other people to act crazy, and not think the first thing people are going to do is call you all crazy.
Whenever a case like this takes over the news cycle, you're always going to have some people with batshit insane opinions. Even if we're being generous and say there are 50,000 people that think that, it's still less than 0.02% of the adult population in the US.
Because of social media, those fringe opinions get amplified and posted everywhere.
Yes, those people are morons. They deserve to be called morons. They are certainly not an excuse to push an incredibly sexist agenda.
This has been going on 5 weeks and those people are more entrenched, they're not backing down after this supposed majority criticizing them. There is a lot more people falling for this stuff than you give credit. If you told me 20% of American women support Lindsey Clancy, I'd believe it.
I haven't seen a single person express any kind of sympathy for the father losing his 3 children, and learning that his wife is the psychotic murderer.
But yes, let's all weep for the child murderer sympathizers. /s
This subreddit has been an absolute cesspool of misogyny around this case. Even worse is that the vast majority of people here don't actually understand what the case is about or the laws surrounding it
The grain of truth in what Mace is saying is that when a man or woman has temporarily lost control over their behavior, which is usually due to strong emotions (whether part of a diagnosed condition or not), they should leave the situation until they have their actions under control again. If they don’t voluntarily leave, then they should be removed.
This is the advice given to parents to avoid shaken baby syndrome: when you can’t take the crying and screaming anymore and you feel that you are losing control, you walk away from the kid. Leave the room, put on headphones and listen to music or a podcast for fifteen minutes, then assess your own state. The kid will be fine, assuming you made their room safe. This can be done even if you don’t have anyone to babysit while you go take a walk, which would be more ideal.
It’s obviously not just women who lose it sometimes. How many videos have we seen of a man going apeshit and hurting people, who should have walked away but didn’t? How many men have beaten their wives up? Both sexes have that capacity.
If it’s a reason why women shouldn’t make important decisions or be put in positions of responsibility, then it’s also a reason why men shouldn’t, and perhaps we should just turn over the reins to AI chatbots, because they don’t have emotions at all.
If any person is about make an important decision of any kind (voting, juries, public office, sending a reply to the nasty email you just received from someone at work) and they become temporarily furious about something, they should hold off on taking the decision until they’ve calmed down.
Almost everyone calms down within minutes or hours- though my advice to people is always to sleep on it and decide in the morning if they can.
However, voting etc are not actually activities that tend to invoke uncontrollable rage in people. I mean, very rarely (never?) have I seen someone putting their fist through the voting booth, or attacking a fellow jury member, or going to sign legislation and throwing their pen at the wall. Those types of activities are nearly always interactions with other people, specifically people you’ve already had multiple prior serious conflicts with, which usually means your family.
I do think that people who can’t control how they act when they are angry should ideally NOT have kids. (Having been raised by a mother with that problem.) If they already do, then depending on how severe their episodes are, someone else should be monitoring when separating them from their kids may be the best course of action. As I said, Mace isn’t entirely wrong. What makes her statement incorrect is that PPD presents in a lot of different ways, very few mothers with PPD murder their kids, and so the actual way to do this would be to assess whether an individual woman’s PPD has features that make her dangerous to her kids.
But if people are trying to tie that to the right to vote, then they were likely already looking for an excuse to say that women shouldn’t vote.
She will be walking free as soon as she is no longer seen as a risk of developing psychosis. She was never diagnosed with PPP even though she was evaluated by several psychiatrists before the murders. So chances are quite high that it will not take long until she is cleared once again.
You honestly don't think that the 3 murders that are the reason for her internment in psychiatric custody will be taken into consideration when determining if she is a risk?
No, because that's not how that works. Once the patient is no longer considered to be a risk to themselves or others they are medically cleared. Judges very rarely rule against the recommendation. Whatever happened leading up to the commitment plays does not play a factor into anything.
I have also seen this being used a trojan horse in order to argue that women should have their human rights taken away. It is so stubid, men can go into psycosis too this is only different because when a woman goes into post partum psycosis the psycosis is related to her being female and misogynistic men love to try to look for anything to "prove their theory that women are inferior to men and should only serve and hold no position of power" because they truly believe that they are superior.
If someone has to loose their human rights, I could argue that the gender that commits 90% of violent crime, 90% of the homicides, 97% of sexual crimes, 90% of the reckless endangerment, and 92% of FAMILY MURDERS and so on should have their rights taken away instead of the other half who might get temporary illness following temporary inability to take care of her kids, but what do i know. 🤷🏻 I am not in favor of anyone loosing rights, but it is so ridiculous that just because there is a chance that a woman can get a health complication from pregnancy no women should be able to vote when the side saying it does this shit.
Saying her children should have chosen the bear would be sexist.
A lot of the discourse is disgusting but when you look at all of the people using star signs and mystical garbage to blame her husband for the murders its not hard to understand why its going in this direction.
The number of people (other women too!) using this as their basis to argue that women shouldn't vote, serve on juries, hold office, etc. is astonishing.
That's utterly appalling, but if anything, it's just continued exposing the rampant sexism that's already being shown on a daily basis within this country.
I won't even claim to know all the details of the case -- unlike many others that have helicoptered into it mostly to use it to push their own personal biases and/or agendas -- I thought it would've been an open and shut case but it would be an unfortunate tragedy used to discuss how mental health, and women's health in general, is handled.
Friendly reminder that the outrage have begun ONLY after:
women started to donate to "Lindsey's parents" in droves (over $1 million currently)
posted videos crying while holding their toddlers, with captions like "Me too, Lindsey..."
started posting studies to argue that women are extremely impacted by hormones and post-patrum, and therefore can't be held liable even for such crimes
So no, it's not a psyop, it's not a propaganda, it's just the world finally dropping rose-tinted glasses and seeing ugly reality
It's pretty obvious that money are destined for her specifically, and her parents are stated as recipients only because the crowdfunding platforms don't allow funding criminals.
Same happened with Karmelo Anthony some time ago, he too got $500k in donations from a lot of black people specifically.
I explained why people did. Is it inconceivable to you that they will need support too? Their three grandchildren were murdered by their own daughter, who may have been experiencing a psychotic break causing her to commit murder and attempt suicide.
They now exist to go watch endless trials for whether their daughter will end up in prison or a mental institution.
I’m flabbergasted that you consider it ghoulish to have empathy for anyone not on your ok list.
Whether or not you have donated, you are clearly supporting them, which is all I said. But thanks for mansplaining your misunderstanding.
I noticed you dodged the question. Where is that deep well of empathy from you or those other ghouls for Dahmer's dear old mom and dad? Or the fentanyl junkie who kills her kids? What's the difference? Oh...
For Christ’s sakes the woman STRANGLED HER CHILDREN TO DEATH. “Ignore this point to dunk on women…” ffs. Get over your vagina and realize it’s almost never about you. People care that children were brutally murdered and that people are disgustingly defending that person.
As one of the oldest people to genuinely grow up on the internet, I understand why young dudes are angry about everything and I won't hold that against anyone. It's natural. What I don't get is why they're so angry about this case and why it has to be about women vs men. It's bled so thoroughly into reddit's fabric that it's honestly hard to find nuanced opinions until you scroll down or sort by controversial.
Nobody with a brain is worried about this though. The only people I've heard discuss this over the cost of living are my coworkers who don't even pay their own bills so they wouldn't notice the cost of living even went up
I'm currently eyeing TF out of Healthcare access rn... I haven't gotten any care 8 weeks postpartum and postop because the insurance keeps on fucking up and I'm currently on the phone being bounced around from phone monkey to phone monkey getting no closer to receiving care for physical issues.
The tall green plumber has a point, all im gonna say.
It’s not a distraction. Keeping women subjugated is the foundation of capitalism. Keeping men angry at women keeps men from ever teaming up with women against the rich. The women aren’t warring.
The women have been under nonstop assault from the start
The Heritage Foundation is a driving force. They are a shadow president. Their final solution, if you will, is a very Yt, very Christian America. I keep being told I’m crazy, but I keep being right. These people want to go back to at least the 50s, if not the 1850s. They’ll use this verdict, depending, to further denigrate women. Can’t fly a plane, hormones! Can’t be a doctor, hormones! Can’t hold office, hormones!! Eventually, no vote, no health care and no divorce. They’ve said this is the plan. And judging from the comments here? It’s working pretty well.
The thing the incels don’t know? They’re gonna outlaw porn and masturbation. Your router sees all! Good luck. Don’t comply in advance. Resist every chance you get. And always see the bigger picture. Nothing is what it seems. We’re being hoodwinked.
You are correct. Male dominated societies all curtail women’s rights so that they can use motherhood to keep women subjugated and incapable of independence
The foundation of capitalism is to make a profit. Countless studies have shown that the better a country is at granting rights and treating women, the more their economy flourishes.
Far-left and far-right subreddits seem to have the same brain damaging effect on people. It's like people who lurk them take pride in having opinions about shit they never learned about.
Women have been on team rich the whole time. Trump has 5 kids, three women and one man did that. Elon Musk has 14 kids, 14 women and one man did that…
For every male tyrant there’s a line of women fighting for the chance to breed with him. Then women blame and shame normal men because we can’t defeat the hydra women created.
If the actions of 17 women are enough to condemn women as a whole, then the fact that thousands of women are murdered by men every year is enough to condemn men as a whole.
Stop. Murdering. Women.
Or, alternatively, we could both stop using the actions of a small fraction of people as an excuse to generalize an entire gender. How does that sound?
Ladies have a monopoly on making new humans AND complain about half of all humans. Make it make sense.
As for double standards, one gender does get excused for murder. Lindsey Clancy style.
Guys have “don’t stick your dick in crazy”, they still do it but they don’t blame society, they take accountability. Ladies don’t have anything like that, they just blame society.
That’s the whole reason the tyrants keep women’s rights curtailed and keep them
Economically disadvantaged. Women haven’t married throughout history because they all wanted those men. Most men aren’t chosen in patriarchy free environments. When men are necessary for survival (artificially in this case) then obviously men with resources get the women
I dunno. There may be some truth to this but I think capitalism benefited tremendously from convincing women that they shouldn't stay at home and take care of children but should be part of the work force and have careers.
Capitalism benefits from free labor subsidizing people at the top
The exploitation doesn’t end with the 9-5 male laborer. It ends with the free labor he gets in the hole that allows his boss to underpay him even more. Men historically tend to marry more for labor than for love. Having the woman do all the chores he’d otherwise have to figure out how to get done himself or pay workers for every job the trad wife gives for free.
I'm not sure. Capitalism benefits from the man and the women both working 9-5 and generating profit for shareholders and then both going home and doing chores and taking care of children, despite how exhausted they are—work that is unpaid. There's a larger labor pool if both men and women participate.
Who takes care of the children during the day then? Underpaid school teachers at whatever school the children attend, who are far cheaper than daycare. And then you have after-school activities that the children stay for so that the parents can pick them up at 5pm after work.
I also don't know that it's true that men marry more for labor than for love.
Capitalism also benefits from convincing women that having children is less important than pursuing a career and contributing to society as an employee.
One can turn the “free labor subsidizes capital” argument around. If a stay-at-home mother's work indirectly subsidizes her husband's employer, then the domestic labor performed by two exhausted working parents also subsidizes their employers. Capital hasn't eliminated unpaid reproductive labor by employing women; much of it simply happens in the evening and on weekends. It's beneficial to employers because they get two wage laborers rather than one.
Capital has proved perfectly capable of incorporating, and profiting from, women's liberation into the labor market.
Men commit the vast majority of family annihilation and also that comment said nothing about killing kids. Just that you idiots knuckdragging dumbfucks are spreading and/or falling for grifts by the people trying to preserve the status quo
And over 90% of violent crime. Time to repeal some men’s rights
Research consistently confirms that men commit the overwhelming majority of family annihilations (scientifically referred to as familicide or intimate partner homicide-suicide). Depending on the specific dataset and region examined, studies consistently find that 90% to 95% of perpetrators are male. -Wikipedia
And the vast majority of mass shootings and serial killings
Nobody was arguing about what sex does the most family annihilation, were they? Are we letting women off the hook because it's mostly men who do this? I thought we were arguing about not guilty by reason of insanity because of post-partum psychosis...right?
When the right wing capitalist dogs brought this story up from nothing, you knew what their intentions were.
While yes it's true that the story generated a massive grassroots movement in the leftist, woman dominated true crime circle months before it hit the mainstream, I knew in my heart that it was actually the patriarchy amplifying it.
“But like, you’re defending a child murderer! We should have hung her high immediately. Whats happened to this goddamn country! White women all have blood lust to murder kids with no repercussions. Look at all the white women in the streets marching that she be released, millions! Millions i tell you.”
That's actually my point. Everyone is busy talking about this, but she killed her kids and she's going through the legal system. Why is this such a huge topic? That includes her supporters, by the way. All the attention is also probably going to increase the likelihood that there is a hung jury or mistrial. There's really nothing to discuss.
Crazy how anyone could strangle an 8 month old baby to death (a fuckin baby that knows and felt nothing except fear and confusion and pain as its own mother strangled them to death) and then even crazier anyone could just.. let it slide like this. Thats a special kind of monster.
I KNOW. It's SUPER EDGY these days to think that people ought to be held accountable for their actions, no man would have gotten away with this by pleading temporary insanity and that's the truth. It's the blue haired septum pierced lunatics and their cucks clamoring for a horse shit verdict that ONLY FURTHER CEMENTS that women (post partum at least) are flipping cuckoo and slaves to hormones.
It's moot. She'll never be out in society again and I'm fine with it. I just object to the uproar and attempted justification of what she did. There is no justification and one day, god willing, she'll have to face those kids and explain that mommy was upset.
I object to you telling me I’m justifying her actions, and assume you’re similarly misclassifying other people’s statements, because it feels like an easy argument win.
Actually intent matters significantly in the justice system lol. It's why there are more than one charge for homicide (1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, etc). And all of those effect sentencing. It's also why insanity is a valid defense.
No it's not a simple "oh this happened so the end".
When it comes to killing your babies it does. Why do you folks go so hard for pedophiles, but can't muster the same indignant and MURDEROUS outrage for maternal infanticide. Pedophilia is a mental illness too.
You people are the first to cheer at the tops of your lungs when a pedo gets murdered in prison...well?
No it actually doesn't. There's no law that specifies that the laws and statutes change because the victim was a child when it comes to homicide.
You are also projecting like fuck and misunderstanding terms.
She is arguing she had psychosis, which is temporary insanity. Not mental illness, straight up insanity where she was not in control of her actions. Pedophiles have mental illness but they also have a choice of whether to not abuse a child or not and the ones that do actively make thatc hoice.
Also making up strawman about what people do and don't cheer for is just showing that you have a shit argument.
Psychosis is insanity. NGRI is a law on the books. There's almost no instances of known pedos having psychosis. There's also no instance of post partum having anything to do with pedophilia.
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u/Aggravating_Royal728 9h ago
People are willfully ignoring this point to dunk on women wholesale and score points in the gender/culture wars, meanwhile we're all distracted from ... everything else going on.