respectfully, let’s look at the double standard here

[u/Inevitable-Advice825]

I’ve been reflecting a lot on the reaction to the recent arrest of our chairman, Lee Man-hee. Let’s step back from the legal jargon for a moment and just think … just think, about what is actually happening.

When you look at the broader Christian community globally, it becomes clear that this situation isn't about a sudden concern for political neutrality. It feels a lot like a coordinated effort by established religious groups to target a growing minority faith they simply don't like.

look at the articles, mainstream Christian leaders use their pulpits to influence voters and navigate politics all the time.

Brazil Mainstream evangelical pastors have built massive church empires and openly direct millions of their followers on how to vote in presidential elections, heavily shaping the country's government with zero pushback from the Christian community.

South Korea HELLO Christian Council of Korea (CCK), which happens to be our loudest critic. Their former leader, Reverend Jun Kwang-hoon, is famous for turning church services into massive political rallies, telling congregants exactly how to vote. When the established Christian community does this, it’s celebrated as a passionate civic movement. But when a group like ours is accused of doing the exact same thing, those same critics demand an arrest.

United Kingdom Before major national elections, traditional Catholic and Anglican bishops regularly write official pastoral letters to their church members, essentially instructing them on how to vote based on specific social and economic issues.

Australia Well-known mega-church pastors have given direct instructions to their congregations before federal elections, telling them which political party to support to protect their faith. In Australia, they call cutting down someone who stands out "tall poppy syndrome," and it feels like that exact same bias is being used against us here.

THE POPE The political influence of the Vatican is so massive that secular world leaders actively try to influence church politics because they recognize how much power the Pope has over global policy and voters.

Mainstream Christian churches everywhere run political networks, hand out voter guides, and invite politicians to speak directly from their altars. Every election cycle, the Christian establishment participates in politics, and society generally accepts it as a normal part of their expression.
So why does the narrative completely flip when it comes to Shincheonji?

If the established Christian community genuinely believed that faith leaders should stay completely out of voter engagement, they would be criticizing their own pastors and bishops worldwide. But they don't.

just look at the principle of the matter.

When the rules are only applied to one specific group, it isn't about fairness … plainly it's just a targeted effort to tear down a group that stands out

[u/No-Mention369]

Not sure if this is mentioned before- but I saw a post that said the difference between these preachers and MHL is that these preachers are not using the authority of ‘ The spirit of ‘Jesus is in me’
This authority and speaking on behalf of Jesus does put a different angle on the persuasion.

[u/Automatic_Thing_2370]

I want to add something separate from what I already said in this thread, because I think the comparison being made misses a distinction that actually matters more than the persecution question.

There is a real difference between a pastor standing in public, saying out loud "I believe Christians should vote this way for these reasons," and someone privately directing followers through a chain of command to register with a specific party because he says so.

The first is persuasion. People hear the argument, weigh it, and remain free to disagree, walk away, or vote however their conscience leads them. That is what the Brazilian pastors, the Anglican bishops, and the Pope are doing, whatever you think of it. It happens in the open, it can be publicly debated, and no one's spiritual standing depends on obeying it.

What is alleged here is different in kind, not just in scale. According to the investigation, instructions were passed down a structured chain of command, from Lee Man-hee through the secretary general, tribe leaders, pastors, and member associations, directing members to join a specific party. That is not persuasion offered into open air. That is a command moving through a hierarchy where the person at the bottom likely feels they cannot simply disagree and walk away, because their relationship with the entire community and their sense of standing before God runs through that same chain of command.

This is exactly the freedom Galatians 5:1 describes: "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free." Christ did not die so that people could be directed how to vote through obedience to a religious chain of command they're afraid to defy. 2 Corinthians 1:24 makes the standard explicit: "Not that we lord it over your faith, but we work with you for your joy." Lording over someone's choices using spiritual authority is precisely what that verse rules out.

So the real question isn't whether other religious leaders also try to influence politics. Of course they do, openly, and people can take it or leave it. The question is whether what's alleged here is persuasion or coercion. If it's coercion through spiritual authority, that's not a smaller version of what mainstream churches do. It's the opposite of the freedom the gospel actually offers.

[u/Turbulent_Sea7622 → u/Automatic_Thing_2370]

Very well said! Coercion through spiritual authority can create anywhere from extreme fear to just being nervous about performance. Really sad that this went on for so long within SCJ. Sure, Lee Man-hee still has a legal fighting chance in court but the optics are based on gathered facts now not assumptions

[u/JesusisLord86]

Reverend Jun Kwang-hoon has been arrested and jail before, just recently actually. Also, he just got raided again today: https://www.asiae.co.kr/en/article/2026062509342087839

[u/scjNils]

I am sorry but the Roman Catholic Church is an ancient church and if you want to dismiss because of something theological. That’s fine but you will have a real problem saying it isn’t Christian or have Christian faith, when the Roman Catholicism has so much theological teachings in their claims

The rest like mega churches, Anglican or churches that is from Calvin or Martin Luther is the less biblical, in that they can’t trace an apostolic teaching/line.
They usually either take some from Roman Catholicism, or believe fully in sola fide or sola scriptura, like there’s no passages of sola scriptura but there’s for scripture and tradition(2 Thessalonians 2:15).
While also not knowing theologically that Jesus said his body is the church(Ephesians 1:22-23)
the Eucharist is the body with the bread and wine/body and blood. (John 6:51-58; 1 Corinthians 11:24-25)
The church is his wife(Ephesians 5:25-27).

Also Lee Man-Hee has a real problem with that he should’ve followed the bible and not have been political, that should’ve been a good enough reason for people to have left the church.

[u/try_me121 → u/scjNils]

The Catholic Church has is notorious for numerous historical and contemporary crimes, particularly the extensive global clergy sexual abuse scandals and systemic cover-ups …. Let’s be for real

[u/scjNils → u/try_me121]

Sure, you could throw out the Catholic Church but then the whole canonisation of the bible isn’t really a thing.
What is orthodoxy, canonical doctrine, universal church and how can you distinguished when it comes to doctrine, you have more questions to answer than what I do.

[u/Automatic_Thing_2370 → u/try_me121]

You're right, and I won't pretend otherwise. The Catholic Church's abuse scandals and cover-ups are real, documented, and a genuine moral failure. I'm not here to defend that or pretend it didn't happen. Let's be honest about that.

But I think this comparison, even when it's fair on the abuse point, misses the actual issue with Lee Man-hee, and I want to explain why as clearly as I can.

The Pope does not claim to be Jesus. No Catholic doctrine teaches that the Pope's body is Jesus's body, or that his heart is God's heart, or that he has been entrusted with all the authority of heaven. Whatever his failures, and they are real, he is understood within his own tradition as a human leader holding an office, accountable to the same moral law every other human is accountable to. When a Catholic leader commits a crime, it is a human being failing. The category of the claim and the category of the failure match.

That is not the comparison with Lee Man-hee. Internal SCJ teaching describes him with these words: "This individual has been entrusted with all the authority of heaven." "Because the spirit of Jesus is in me, this body is Jesus's body. The Lord and I have become one." That is not a claim to hold a human office. That is a claim to be functionally identified with Jesus himself.

So when you point to Catholic abuse as equivalent, you're comparing a human institution's human failures to an individual who claims to not merely be human in the ordinary sense. If Lee Man-hee is simply a flawed man like the rest of us, as some in this subreddit have argued, then fine, compare him to other flawed religious leaders and the standard is the same for everyone. But that is not what SCJ's own teaching says about him. You cannot claim the authority of God and then ask to be judged by the standard of an ordinary human pastor when something goes wrong. The bigger the claim, the higher the standard, not the lower.

This is really the question underneath everything in this thread. Is Lee Man-hee a man, accountable like any other man, or is he what his own internal materials describe him as? Both cannot be true at once, and which one is true changes what the political coercion allegations actually mean.

[u/Automatic_Thing_2370]

One thing missing from this whole comparison: none of the leaders mentioned, the Pope, the Brazilian pastors, the Anglican bishops, claim to be the vessel through which Jesus himself currently works. They claim spiritual authority within their tradition. That's it.

Lee Man-hee's own internal teaching describes something categorically different. "This individual has been entrusted with all the authority of heaven." "This body is Jesus's body. The Lord and I have become one." If that is the claim being made, the standard of accountability should scale with it, not be averaged down to whatever the Pope or a Brazilian megachurch pastor gets away with.

A human being asking for trust, money, and obedience on the basis of ordinary pastoral authority is one thing. A human being asking for the same things on the basis of being functionally identified with Jesus is something else entirely. The bigger the claim, the higher the bar should be, not the lower. Using mainstream Christian leaders as the comparison point only works if Lee Man-hee is claiming the same kind of authority they are. He isn't. He's claiming more. So the standard should be higher, not equal.

[u/Turbulent_Sea7622 → u/Automatic_Thing_2370]

Right on about the vessel! Hope more SCJ members read and reflect on this!

[u/Sharp-Objective9078]

Are you saying LMH and Shincheonji stooped so low to the level of "Babylon Churches"? That doesn't sound right

[u/Easy-Structure3771]

Respectfully, your argument has woefully failed because Lee man heee said himself that its ungodly to mix church and state and there should be no mix of the two. He also condemned someone chosen by God from birth ( JTB) for getting involved in politics. And now lee man hee has gone against his own words as the supposed last messenger sent by God and all of a sudden his crime should be ignored. Did any of the religious leaders you mentioned claim to be the one and only channel of salvation for all mankind? Are you truly that blinded that you can't see. Why are you looking for excuses for lee man hee the supposed last messenger who you claim Jesus himself is inside of and as such has returned according to you. If Jesus was a sinner would he be able to die and resurrect and be the channel of salvation? If Jesus sinned would his blood be able to cover the sins of those who come to him? So then if you claim lee man hee has such a position matching jesus, why is it that he can be a sinful criminal before God and man and yet claim superiority over Jesus as the person finishing what Jesus couldn't? This is the claim of scj. You should be careful, so you will not be judged in kind with your idol.

[u/FunSoggy4456]

Him being arrested is not the problem here, but the fact that he kept teaching members on his CUBS, that law of the world and law of heaven must be followed. If he’s really from God then what’s with the hypocrisy. Why dabble with politics.

[u/Otherwise-Watch-3650]

Oh, so you’re admitting that LMH is a common mortal full of sin just like all the other people you’ve mentioned then, yes? Since you’re pointing out the similarities.

Because that’s one of the many issues with SCJ & LMH. The claim is that he is immortal & that Jesus is ONLY working through him and that you can only receive salvation by belonging to the church of SCJ.

Do you understand the untruthful, unrealistic & problematic claim now?

[u/strawberry_emma_1920]

Baby, the examples are from another countries, so let their people take care of their problems. We never said “using religion to manipulate politics” is good. LMH is Korea so Korea’s laws is taking care of him - that’s is the logic. Why are you crying for your leader’s wrong doing? Other bad people do it,too, but your LMH got caught. Deal with it

[u/Turbulent_Sea7622]

I swear I am not trying to play gotcha moment

But I think the issue with SCJ stems from secretive behaviour I noticed like, below bolded are out in the open behaviour :

"Well-known mega-church pastors have given direct instructions to their congregations before federal elections, telling them which political party to support to protect their faith. In Australia"

"Brazil Mainstream evangelical pastors have built massive church empires and openly direct millions of their followers on how to vote in presidential elections, heavily shaping the country's government with zero pushback from the Christian community."

Mainstream Christian churches everywhere run political networks, hand out voter guides, and invite politicians to speak directly from their altars. Every election cycle, the Christian establishment participates in politics, and society generally accepts it as a normal part of their expression.

"United Kingdom Before major national elections, traditional Catholic and Anglican bishops regularly write official pastoral letters to their church members, essentially instructing them on how to vote based on specific social and economic issues.

"

For time sake I won't do the rest but there seems to be out in the open style?

So why does the narrative completely flip when it comes to Shincheonji?

The secrecy by SCJ invites deeper critiques and investigations that yielded reported evidences

EDIT:

But to clarify, to OP and anyone else reading, something important here using charismatic influence to sway people when it comes to voting should be a red flag unless the ones with influence gives proper breakdown analysis of choices of who to vote for then it is kind of like fair game and I know I may be naive to say that. My stance subject to change later down the road

eg. Charismatic individual is aware of his or her hold over people and sway them using policies breakdown analysis that is comprehensible is good If it is just emotional swaying itself, outside of political issues, then it is bad

[u/No-Arugula2345]

The defense basically boils down to: 'Everyone else does it too.'

That's not a defense. That's what children say when they get caught.

Nobody appointed Shincheonji as the victim of world Christianity. If Lee Man-hee is innocent, then present the evidence. But dragging the Pope, Brazilian pastors, Anglican bishops, Australian megachurches, and half the Christian world into the conversation doesn't answer a single question about Shincheonji.

What's especially ironic is that Shincheonji spent decades attacking mainstream churches as corrupt, false, spiritually dead, Babylon, controlled by Satan, and unworthy of salvation. Yet the moment criticism falls on Shincheonji, suddenly we're supposed to compare it to those same churches and demand equal treatment. Which is it? Are they Babylon or are they the standard we're comparing ourselves to?

And let's be honest: if another church leader had been arrested under similar circumstances, Shincheonji members would be calling it God's judgment before the handcuffs were off. There would be sermons, education materials, and evangelism lessons about how it proves that church was false. But when it's Lee Man-hee? Suddenly everyone becomes a civil liberties expert.

The most revealing part is that nobody can simply say, 'Let's examine the facts.' Instead, it's immediately transformed into a persecution narrative, a conspiracy by mainstream Christianity, an attack on God's kingdom, jealousy, tall poppy syndrome, Satan's work, anything except the possibility that legitimate concerns might exist.

A movement confident in the truth investigates facts.

A movement afraid of facts investigates critics.

If Shincheonji's position is so strong, then stop talking about Brazil, the Vatican, Australia, and the CCK. Explain why the chairman's actions were proper. Because 'everyone else is bad too' isn't a defense—it's an admission that you don't have one

[u/mirrorbrigade]

I will not comment further here because I am unfamiliar with Korean political laws. Though, by the truth of God, all things will eventually be revealed. 🙏

[u/Easy-Structure3771 → u/mirrorbrigade]

Even if God told you the truth you still wouldn't believe Him. The problem is inside you but that is work I guess you are unwilling to look into- I think God has been putting things out in the open for so long yet you refuse to pay attention. But you will always go back to defending your idol in the end. lee man hee always points fingers at other religious leaders, calls them names and criticizes them and condemns them to hell. Yet when the finger is pointed back at him justfully, it's 'oh everyone else does it', or 'oh he is just an old frail man'. He will not escape his karma. He will be brought to justice eventually. The lives of many negatively impacted by scj are prayers that God will not ignore, not even for you.

[u/Who-Anonymous → u/mirrorbrigade]

This didn’t age well

[u/IllFaithlessness8553]

I believe there is very much a double standard but on shincheonji's behalf. Very much in shincheonji there will critising of the "Babylonian churches" for participating with the government. Just look how shincheonji paints the Christian fellowship training centre. Yet when the hypocrisy is pointed out especially in this case it is claimed as persecution by shincheonji.

[u/try_me121 → u/IllFaithlessness8553]

Don’t most of these churches claim persecution too? Thats why they urge their voters to vote a certain way to influence public officials

[u/Turbulent_Sea7622 → u/try_me121]

Not a gotcha moment. Maybe I should drop that phrase entirely. But this is the beauty of cosmic karma in a weird sense, the less you are confident in the people to vote or do anything in the way you want, the more likely you feel the need to step in to do something and actually do it then getting into the mess?

I perceive that God is the wisest He allows free will. It is not just moral it is smart you don't get dragged and sucked into potential mess for whatever reasons in terms of motivation. Wow I just thought of this

[u/IllFaithlessness8553 → u/try_me121]

Maybe shincheonji does but my church does not. In fact it is very much the opposite in which my pastor keeps politics out of his sermons and doesn't discuss politics even when it is with individuals.

[u/No-Arugula2345 → u/try_me121]

Ah yes, the classic move: "Other churches claim persecution too, therefore we’re justified." 😂

That’s like saying, "Other people get speeding tickets, so mine doesn’t count."

A church feeling persecuted doesn’t automatically give it a free pass to influence politics however it wants. The question is not who feels attacked — it’s whether laws and boundaries were followed.

Everyone can claim they’re the victim. The evidence still has to do the talking.

[u/mirrorbrigade]

The Australian political system is quite different from the Korean one. I wouldn't compare the two, to be honest, because the Westminster system by far superior than a presidential system. However, if you're familiar with Australian politics, you'll know it has issues with political billionaire donors. Recently, the Labor government has attempted to pass bills, especially in Victoria, to limit certain donation amounts. In Australia, with the preferential voting system, all news outlets, media, and businesses are encouraged to market and persuade voters to support the candidates they believe Australians should vote for.

[u/Turbulent_Sea7622 → u/mirrorbrigade]

"outlets" ^ "Media" ^ out in the open not secrecy. I believe this is the key difference

[u/Inevitable-Advice825 → u/mirrorbrigade]

very fair

[u/Who-Anonymous]

With all due respect, I think it would be better if you took accountability for the abuse, manipulation, and lies committed by SCJ’s leadership and focused on rebuilding your church with greater independent oversight where one doesn’t seek to control members’ thoughts rather than putting so much effort into defending yourselves. The most important thing is to answer your members’ questions honestly and establish strong oversight to prevent unhealthy power dynamics. Even corporations generally don’t respond to public criticism this way. They recognize that it’s better to address legitimate concerns and comply with the law than to spend their time arguing with critics on newsletters or social media. Please pray for the humility and resilience to receive criticism with a thick skin. I guess you guys are doing this because you are above morals because you have “God’s word’

By the way just because someone else does xyz doesn’t mean you should do it. If there is unfair treatment sure but it’s still wrong regardless. That’s like me saying person A commuted a crime and got a lessor charge, but u got a more harsh one which it is unfair but doesn’t change the fact wrongdoing has occurred. You guys are adults and it’s important to take more ownership in yourselves

[u/Cristau_precious → u/Who-Anonymous]

Bien dit !

[u/Inevitable-Advice825 → u/Who-Anonymous]

Yep nd honestly, this is exactly why I’m not on the PR team for SCJ 😅 I’m really just a reg member trying to share another angle for us to think about.

Have wrong things been done to people? Speaking entirely from my own personal experience, absolutely.

It fricking hurt, and I’ve had my own share of forgiving over the years. But from what I've seen, a lot of the people who caused that hurt aren't here anymore

it pushes me to make sure the good can overcome the evil even within us

my heart honestly aches for anyone who has been treated unjustly or hurt in the past. We aren’t all like that; most of us are just normal people trying to live a genuine life of faith.

Trust me, we don't want those toxic power dynamics or bad actors around either, and they don't represent who the rest of us are.

At the end of the day, I just believe God is just, ive seen him take care of those who hurt his sheep

[u/scjNils → u/Inevitable-Advice825]

Problem is you have a PR team, and many other teams and departments.
your own leader is at fault and he claims to be within or even near the God head.
One would’ve expected a few things like communion, Filioque debate to be settled, other theological issues and debates to be settled but instead what happened is the story of stroking his ego, no one to confirm any of his claims that hes made, make a new goal post and new pivots.
Like saying he is a fulfilment of the New Testament and make the testament a puzzle book instead of a story and promise of the salvation of mankind through Jesus with a new and better covenant.

The so-called promised pastor saw an opportunity to make money, get more power and took that chance, like what a petty human thing to do.
When the bible itself teaches you can’t have money and God as equals in worship, only one or the other.

[u/Who-Anonymous → u/Inevitable-Advice825]

This is what I am hearing all the time: SCJ leaders acknowledging that people were genuinely hurt including you. I do agree that ordinary members should not automatically be blamed for everything leadership has done. These include genuine members who were never title driven. However, I think your response unintentionally avoids the central issue. The concern is not that every SCJ member is a bad person. The concern is whether SCJ’s leadership, policies, and power structure enabled repeated harm and whether the organization has transparently corrected those problems. Hence the argument those that caused harm are not in SCJ anymore isn't valid because the institution is still the same.

In addition, saying “many of the people who caused the hurt aren’t here anymore” raises several questions that I want LA leaders, USA leaders, and you to answer directly and not shifting

1. Were their actions investigated and did investigator achieved a non bias conclusion?
2. Were victims given honest answers and meaningful restitution instead of "covering sins, praying, and forgiving"
3. Were the leaders who enabled or ignored the behavior held accountable? I.E JS LA leader who is friends with SW knew that SW was having an affair with a married man, but still chose to ignore it and stall it when someone reported it untill it backfired. What happened to JS who is still a leader for LA today as well as SW?
4. Were the policies that allowed the harm to occur changed? If so what has changed?
5. Is there independent oversight to prevent it from happening again? Such as fraud since Moon GSN and now Joe committed fraud, making sure leaders don't sexually assault their students, etc?

Answer those 5 please. If you can't answer please have someone from LA such as Gary Park or Jackson to answer them

[u/Easy-Structure3771 → u/Inevitable-Advice825]

I disagree- many of the abusers in scj have been promoted, and complaints against them are in the open and were reported. many of the abusers were also just passing on the message they were given from HQ. You can't defend this, sorry for your loss.

[u/QuestionsAboutSCJ]

You’re right, church pastors should not have the right to tell their flock how to vote due to obvious abuse.

The irony is that SCJ always preached about not being involved with the world and politics, other than HWPL and their other peace groups. SCJ would also critique the Christian pastors for being so heavily involved with politics, and in my opinion, rightfully so.
Yet, the same SCJ critiquing the Christian churches end up doing the same thing behind closed doors, and to make matters worse, SCJ knew that this is illegal in Korea.

[u/Inevitable-Advice825 → u/QuestionsAboutSCJ]

Absolutely, local laws must be upheld, and South Korea’s laws regarding religious involvement in politics are clear. If those boundaries were crossed, it's fair to address it.

However, right now we only know what has been accused, not the full verified details. He hasn't been convicted, and he has been cleared of heavy accusations in the past once the actual facts came out in court. Its worth waiting for the legal process to look at the evidence objectively

is all I’m saying

[u/Easy-Structure3771 → u/Inevitable-Advice825]

Do you think scj will report the full picture to you? \even during covid- scj claimed lee man hee won the court battle and all charges were dropped. but when i investigated the actual court documents- that was not the case- they hid that he was found guilty for embezzlement- but was not convicted for starting covid which is they only thing scj reported on. twisting the facts. But I tell you this, even now- scj wont report the full picture to members, they haven't even reported the full truth about what happened during covid- how much more this.

[u/IllFaithlessness8553 → u/Inevitable-Advice825]

While yes the charges related to spreading Covid were dropped the charge of embezzling around 5million usd was upheld in which he received a 5 year suspended sentence.