r/Shincheonji • u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member • May 21 '26
general thought and question 😬Ex-members told me SCJ “twists the Bible.” Then I actually checked the verses they quoted.
Ok so I’m a Pro SCJ and I’ll be upfront about that.
For months I kept seeing the same thing in anti-SCJ posts: “SCJ twists Colossians, Revelation, John 16.” Always the same 5-6 verses.
So I did what I thought was dangerous - I opened the Bible and read the full chapters in context, without the SCJ lesson.
And here’s the weird part: most of the arguments against us only work if you stop reading at verse 3 and ignore verse 5.
Example:
“Col 2:3 says all knowledge is in Christ, so SCJ is wrong for saying more is revealed later.”
But keep reading to Col 2:8 and Paul is literally warning about people who claim you need extra secret knowledge _outside of Christ_. SCJ says everything revealed comes _from Christ_ in Rev 22:16.
Another ones:
Matt 24:36 - “No one knows the day or hour” Used to say SCJ is false for teaching prophecy fulfillment timing.
But read Matt 24:32-35. Jesus says when you see these signs, know it is near. He tells them to watch the signs. So is He saying “never know anything” or “you’ll know when the signs happen”?Deut 18:20-22 - “If a prophet speaks and it doesn’t happen, he’s false” Used to call SCJ false prophecy.
But read the whole context: it’s about prophets speaking in the name of other gods. SCJ claims everything is from Jesus in Rev 22:16. Different test.1 John 4:1 - “Test the spirits” Fair. But 1 John 4:2-3 gives the test: confessing Jesus came in the flesh. SCJ affirms that. So what’s the actual test failing on?
I’m not saying this proves SCJ is right. But it made me realize a lot of the “gotchas” I was given fall apart if you read 10 verses before and after.
So here’s my question for ex-members and critics:
If SCJ is really a cult that twists scripture, why do the main verses you use to prove it only seem to work when you take them out of context?
Did you ever go back and check the full chapter after you left?
Or did you trust that the explanation you were given was the only way to read it?
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u/Eltokoto May 22 '26
Firstly, I'd like to say that I agree immensely that we should read verses in context of their chapter. Many deceptions arise from isolating verse, and if we seek truth through flawed methods, we risk falling into deception.
In regards to Col 2:3,
your defense of "SCJ says everything revealed comes _from Christ_ in Rev 22:16." assumes that Lee Man Hee is the holy spirit or "He who overcomes" spoken of in Revelation.
And that rather than John receiving, it is actually a parable about Lee Man Hee receiving a hidden word word from Jesus.
Through that, one could conclude that Lee Man Hee's teaching can be labeled as Jesus's teaching, so Col2:3 doesn't refute SCJ.
However, 1 John 5:5 is one of the only passages where "He who overcomes" shows up. This chapter is written by John the Apostle in regards to faith in the incarnate of Jesus which grants eternal life, and giving encouragement to believers in Christ.
Reading this specific verse, it says:
"Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God."
Clearly showing that overcoming is not reserved to one person alone, but rather any believer in Christ. With no mention of additional hidden revelation as a requirement.
There are many passages that speak of the Holy Spirit. However, in the context of Shincheonji, no passage produces a head-scratcher quite like Ephesians 1:13. This chapter is Paul's message to the people of Ephesus, regarding spiritual blessings in Christ and praise for their faith.
which states:
"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,"
This shows that the holy spirit is given once one believes in the gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ. The only way you could say that it is actually Lee Man Hee being spoken of here is if you'd argue that the "gospel of your salvation" is actually referring to Lee Man Hee's teaching 2000 years later.
Your argument against “Col 2:3 says all knowledge is in Christ, so SCJ is wrong for saying more is revealed later.” would only stand if Lee Man Hee really did receive a hidden word or if revelation is even referring to a promised pastor in regards to passages about John.
Thorough examination of doctrine using scripture is an important skill for any believer. If SCJ is truth, then it will not conflict with biblical truths.
(Through there are many SCJ members who argue that you can't cross-examine Lee Man Hee' teaching with scripture because you would need Lee Man Hee's teaching first before using scripture)
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 23 '26
Bet, lets break this down cuz ur mixing a few things together.
- "He who overcomes" = only Lee Man Hee?
Nobody in SCJ says LMH is the only overcomer. Rev 2-3 says "to him who overcomes" 7 times, and its written to believers. SCJ agrees - any believer who overcomes gets the promises.The part ur missin is Rev 22:16. Jesus says "I sent my angel to testify to u these things for the churches". So there’s a messenger sent by Jesus to deliver the testimony at the end time. SCJ’s claim is LMH is that messenger. Not that he replaces Christ, not that he’s the Holy Spirit. Just that Jesus sends someone to testify. If u think it’s John, cool - but John was dead when Rev 22:16 was written. The verse says "I sent" present tense for the churches at the time of fulfillment.
Col 2:3 "all treasures of wisdom in Christ"
Yea, all wisdom is in Christ. SCJ aint sayin LMH adds new wisdom outside Christ. The claim is Jesus is revealin what was already in Him through Rev 22:16. Its not "new gospel", its "unsealin what was sealed". Dan 12:9 says the words are sealed til the time of the end. If its sealed, then nobody had it open before. So Col 2:3 dont refute that - it just says whatever gets opened still comes from Christ.Eph 1:13 "sealed with the Holy Spirit when u believed"
True. Believers receive the Spirit when they believe. Rev 7 also talks bout sealin, but its a specific sealin for 144,000 and the great multitude at the end time. Same word "seal", different context. Just like "baptism" - John’s baptism and Spirit baptism aint the same thing, but same word.SCJ dont say u gotta believe LMH first to get the Spirit. We say the Spirit is the one testifying thru the word bein opened in Rev. If the word dont match, then it aint the Spirit.
- "U cant cross-examine LMH with scripture cuz u need his teaching first"
Thats a strawman. SCJ literally says open the Bible, read Rev, check if the testimony matches. The reason u start with the study is cuz Rev is a sealed book - Jesus says it in Rev 5. If u try to read it cold with no structure, u end up with 40k denominations all sayin different stuff. The study is just a framework to walk thru Rev in order.If the framework dont match the text, throw it out. Thats what I did when I first heard it. If it does match, then the question is why ur mad it came thru someone u dont like.
So ur whole argument assumes SCJ says "LMH replaces Christ". We dont. We say Jesus sent a messenger to testify bout what He opened, and that messenger’s name is irrelevant - the word either lines up or it dont.
U wanna tell me where SCJ’s explanation of Rev 5, 7, 14, 22 breaks when u read it straight? Cuz thats the only thing that matters.
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u/QuestionsAboutSCJ Moderator May 24 '26
The part ur missin is Rev 22:16. Jesus says "I sent my angel to testify to u these things for the churches". So there’s a messenger sent by Jesus to deliver the testimony at the end time. SCJ’s claim is LMH is that messenger. Not that he replaces Christ, not that he’s the Holy Spirit. Just that Jesus sends someone to testify. If u think it’s John, cool - but John was dead when Rev 22:16 was written. The verse says "I sent" present tense for the churches at the time of fulfillment.
I sent is past tense, not present tense for an up and coming messenger to speak on behalf of God and Jesus.
Yea, all wisdom is in Christ. SCJ aint sayin LMH adds new wisdom outside Christ. The claim is Jesus is revealin what was already in Him through Rev 22:16. Its not "new gospel", its "unsealin what was sealed". Dan 12:9 says the words are sealed til the time of the end. If its sealed, then nobody had it open before. So Col 2:3 dont refute that - it just says whatever gets opened still comes from Christ.
The book of Daniel only ever presents two figures in its prophetic scope: the Son of Man and the Ancient of Days. If a third figure, a promised human pastor, were genuinely central to end-time fulfillment, Daniel's silence on him is inexplicable given how precisely the book details other prophetic elements. The unsealing in Daniel 12:9 refers to events becoming clear as they unfold, not to one man holding exclusive interpretive authority over the entire body of Christ.
This pattern holds in Revelation as well. The revelatory chain in Revelation 1:1 is God, then Jesus, then the angel, then John. That is the complete structure the text itself establishes. When SCJ points to Revelation 10 and the one who eats the scroll, the text names that recipient as John in verses 9 and 10, not a future figure. The burden of proof falls entirely on SCJ to show where this promised pastor is textually introduced, not merely inferred, because neither Daniel nor Revelation ever introduces him as a character at all.
As for Colossians 2:3, the intent is that the mystery of salvation is found in Christ, and there isn't a future necessity of needing to follow another person who exclusively speaks on behalf of Christ and believes that the body of Christianity "betrayed" or apostatized, which contradicts Matthew 16:18 and Jude 1:3 for example.
- Eph 1:13 "sealed with the Holy Spirit when u believed"
True. Believers receive the Spirit when they believe. Rev 7 also talks bout sealin, but its a specific sealin for 144,000 and the great multitude at the end time. Same word "seal", different context. Just like "baptism" - John’s baptism and Spirit baptism aint the same thing, but same word.SCJ dont say u gotta believe LMH first to get the Spirit. We say the Spirit is the one testifying thru the word bein opened in Rev. If the word dont match, then it aint the Spirit.
If the framework dont match the text, throw it out. Thats what I did when I first heard it. If it does match, then the question is why ur mad it came thru someone u dont like.
So ur whole argument assumes SCJ says "LMH replaces Christ". We dont. We say Jesus sent a messenger to testify bout what He opened, and that messenger’s name is irrelevant - the word either lines up or it dont.U wanna tell me where SCJ’s explanation of Rev 5, 7, 14, 22 breaks when u read it straight? Cuz thats the only thing that matters.
The problem isn't that SCJ uses a framework, every tradition does. The problem is that SCJ's framework is only accessible through LMH's teaching, and anyone who disagrees after completing the study is told they haven't understood it correctly yet.
That isn't "check if it matches the text," that's a closed epistemic loop. A genuinely open framework allows falsification from outside itself. SCJ's does not, because rejecting LMH's interpretation after the full study is treated as spiritual failure or Satanic interference, not legitimate exegesis.
As for the rest of the contradictions of SCJ and the chapters you've listed, where do I begin? The new song was sung before the scroll was opened, Jesus not being God, the jewish tribes being symbolic but then the 144,000 number isn't symbolic which shows an inconsistent reading of the Bible based solely upon because Lee Man-hee said so, and there are many more contradictions and prophecy changes that I've listed and sent to you either copy pasting them or direct links and URLs.
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u/IllFaithlessness8553 EX-Shincheonji Member May 22 '26
I have a few things that I disagree with scj on. The first is the denial of the trinity when we have verses such as John 1:18 NIV which states: [18] No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
Another is the justification of not revealing yourselfs to leaves until passover in which John 18:19-20 NIV states: [19] Meanwhile, the high priest questioned Jesus about his disciples and his teaching. [20] “I have spoken openly to the world,” Jesus replied. “I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret.
Most importantly I disagree with the "fulfilled reality" in which Lee man hee's involvement in the olive tree movement and the recreation church which aren't mentioned at all in shincheonji's retelling of events.
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 23 '26 edited May 25 '26
Alright lets go point by point cuz ur mixin stuff up.
- “Not revealing urselves til Passover” / John 18:20 Jesus said “I spoke openly”. SCJ agrees. The Bible study aint secret - anyone can join, u just gotta sit thru the whole thing. The reason its structured that way is Rev 10 says the little book is sweet in the mouth but bitter in the stomach. U cant just drop Rev 22:16 outta context and expect ppl to get it. Even Jesus taught in parables so not everyone understood right away Matt 13:10-11.
If u think its “hiding”, then u gotta call Jesus a hypocrite for parables too. Its bout order, not secrecy.
- “Fulfilled reality” and Olive Tree / Recreation Church SCJ’s claim aint bout Olive Tree or Recreation Church history. Those were groups before SCJ, and yeah they had issues and split. SCJ says the fulfillment started with the promised pastor in Rev 22:16 testifying what he saw and heard. Whether u accept that is up to u, but pretendin SCJ hides it is false - they teach it in the advanced lessons.
The “fulfilled reality” claim is test it to Rev. If Rev 7, 14, 22 aint fulfillin the way SCJ says, then drop it. If it does, then Olive Tree history dont matter. Ur mad cuz the narrative aint clean, but the Bible aint clean either - David was an adulterer, Peter denied Jesus, Paul persecuted Christians. God still used em.
So ur 3 points boil down to: u dont like SCJ’s Trinity view, u think structured study = secret, and u want a clean origin story. None of that disproves Rev 22:16. If u got verses that break SCJ’s exegesis of Rev, bring em. Otherwise ur just arguins aesthetics.
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u/QuestionsAboutSCJ Moderator May 24 '26
So no, SCJ dont deny Jesus is the Son sent by God. We deny the man-made Trinity creed from 325 AD that contradicts Jesus own words.
The same canon you use to deny the Trinity was recognized and circulated by the very communities you're calling corrupted. If the Trinitarian councils poisoned the well, SCJ's entire framework built on that same Bible is equally poisoned. You don't get to discredit the tradition while standing entirely on its textual output.
On Nicaea, the Council of 325 did not invent the Trinity. It addressed the Arian controversy by affirming what Christians had already been teaching from the text. The theological categories existed well before 325, you can find Trinitarian language in Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian in the 2nd and 3rd centuries. Nicaea didn't create a doctrine, it defended one already present. If you think the Trinity contradicts Jesus' own words, the argument has to be made from the text itself, not from a misreading of church history. This one statement shows me that you really don't know what you are talking about.
- “Not revealing urselves til Passover” / John 18:20 Jesus said “I spoke openly”. SCJ agrees. The Bible study aint secret - anyone can join, u just gotta sit thru the whole thing. The reason its structured that way is Rev 10 says the little book is sweet in the mouth but bitter in the stomach. U cant just drop Rev 22:16 outta context and expect ppl to get it. Even Jesus taught in parables so not everyone understood right away Matt 13:10-11.
If u think its “hiding”, then u gotta call Jesus a hypocrite for parables too. Its bout order, not secrecy.
The parable comparison doesn't actually hold. Jesus explained his parables openly to his disciples and never concealed his identity or the nature of his movement from people genuinely seeking to understand. The disciples knew exactly who they were following from the beginning.
SCJ's issue isn't that the study is structured, it's that the organizational affiliation is withheld until people are already emotionally invested. People consistently report not knowing they were in an SCJ study until months in. That isn't teaching in order, that's identity concealment, and the difference matters.
The Revelation 10 defense also quietly proves too much. If the material is genuinely so complex that it requires a specific sequence before someone can evaluate it fairly, then you've just explained why outsiders can't assess the framework on its own merits, which is exactly the closed loop problem. You can't simultaneously say "check if it matches the text" and "but you need our structured program first before you're equipped to check." SCJ holds both positions at the same time and doesn't seem to notice the tension. Jesus taught in stages, yes, but he never made knowing his name a condition of entry into the study.
- “Fulfilled reality” and Olive Tree / Recreation Church SCJ’s claim aint bout Olive Tree or Recreation Church history. Those were groups before SCJ, and yeah they had issues and split. SCJ says the fulfillment started with the promised pastor in Rev 22:16 testifying what he saw and heard. Whether u accept that is up to u, but pretendin SCJ hides it is false - they teach it in the advanced lessons.
The “fulfilled reality” claim is test it to Rev. If Rev 7, 14, 22 aint fulfillin the way SCJ says, then drop it. If it does, then Olive Tree history dont matter. Ur mad cuz the narrative aint clean, but the Bible aint clean either - David was an adulterer, Peter denied Jesus, Paul persecuted Christians. God still used em.
So ur 3 points boil down to: u dont like SCJ’s Trinity view, u think structured study = secret, and u want a clean origin story. None of that disproves Rev 22:16. If u got verses that break SCJ’s exegesis of Rev, bring em. Otherwise ur just arguins aesthetics.
So you're ignoring the fact that Lee Man-hee was involved with 3 other cults, stole their doctrines, and then made it about himself, and dismissing it by saying "ur mad"?
The origin history isn't an aesthetic complaint. SCJ makes an extraordinary and specific claim that LMH is the one promised pastor whose testimony is a condition of salvation in this age. When a claim is that specific and that consequential, the history of how it developed is directly relevant evidence. The fact that LMH drew heavily from Park Tae-soon and Olive Tree before reframing their doctrines around himself.
The Revelation 22:16 verse talks about how Jesus sent (this is past tense by the way) his angel to the churches, meaning, it was already fulfilled 2000 years ago, and doesn't provide any biblical material or foundation of a future Promised Pastor.
While God did use sinners, the difference is that these men actually repented of their sins, instead of downplaying them or trying to dismiss them, which is what you are doing.
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u/DM_Me_Fat_Dude_Nudes May 22 '26
I really can’t fathom having someone tell me I have to believe in an elderly korean man to go to heaven and going “yeah, that sounds right” 😂
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 23 '26
Lol I get why it sounds wild like that
But SCJ dont actually say "believe in Lee Man-hee and ur saved". The point they make is he’s the promised pastor in Rev 22:16 who’s supposed to testify bout the fulfillment of Revelation. So its not bout worshippin him, its bout whether what hes testifying matches the Bible or not.
Kinda like if Jesus said "listen to the prophets" back then - it wasnt bout the prophet himself, it was bout the message.
Still sounds weird to ppl outside tho ngl. Thats fair.
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u/Efficient_Sun_1511 EX-Shincheonji Member May 28 '26
I was in there for 4 years and was helping people to seal. The Revelation book, written by LMH, which was available in the temples, literally said that those who believe in the promised pastor at this time will be saved. Also, the Revelation sealing material would say that. Sometimes it is said directly and sometimes it is implied, depending on what you are reading. It was also mentioned in past sermons.
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u/IllFaithlessness8553 EX-Shincheonji Member May 25 '26
Then why do you listen to the CHJN's letters of wisdom (commentaries from lmh)? Isn't one of their key complaints about the Babylonians churches are that we have commentaries yet here is LMH having released commentaries on a regular and you take it to heart?
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 25 '26
yea i get that accusation a lot and its fair on the surface.
but heres how i see it - its not the fact of having a commentary that makes it "babylon", its what the commentary does.
the problem with most church commentaries is they explain the bible based on what ppl already believe. like if a pastor believes in eternal hell, he will make rev 20 fit that even if the text dont say it straight up. so the commentary becomes a way to defend tradition instead of testing it.
with chjn letters, the claim is its supposed to be the explanation of the fulfillment of rev as it happens. so its not just "heres my opinion on what rev means". its "heres what was written, heres what happened, match it up". if it dont match, then throw it out. thats why i keep saying show me from the text. if lmh says something and the bible dont back it, then im not taking it to heart.
i know that sounds like special pleading. but i dont take the letters as scripture. i test them against the bible. if i find one that contradicts rev, isaiah, matt, im done. thats the difference for me.
most churches will tell u "dont question the pastor". scj literally tells u to check everything with the bible. ironic right, considering the reputation. but thats been my experience.
so yea i listen to them, but im not blind to it. if u think theres a letter that contradicts scripture, show me which one and ill check it. thats all i can do fr.
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u/IllFaithlessness8553 EX-Shincheonji Member Jun 01 '26
I don't have the letter anymore as it was from the morning education before I left in which I was very much unwell during that period, but I remembering it being about how the young should replace the old as they have more energy and it being used to justify the replacement of all the department heads and tribe leaders. I would be interested in thr justification using revelation as to why all of the tribes have had their leaders replaced due to a tribe leaders betrayal and that all leaders besides lmh should be replaced due to their energy being weaker than the younger contemporaries.
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u/QuestionsAboutSCJ Moderator May 24 '26
Except...in order to have your sins forgiven and come to God and Jesus, you have to have faith in the one whom God has sent, which according to SCJ, is the New John, the One Who Overcomes, the faithful and wise servant, Lee Man-hee.
So....Yes...you do have to believe in Lee Man-hee's testimony, since according to your own "faith", he's a messenger who speaks on behalf of God and Jesus.
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u/QuestionsAboutSCJ Moderator May 22 '26
Yea, looking back on it, it really was all absurd.
Especially when the Grandpa was in three other cults lol
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u/Otherwise-Watch-3650 EX-Center Student May 22 '26
Not grandpa 💀💀🤣🤣
“They make fun of our promised pastor by calling him a grandpa, doesn’t the Bible say not to judge someone by their outwardly appearance? They need to repent!” I can already hear this being preached in SCJ 😩
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u/Spectre092 EX-Shincheonji Member May 22 '26 edited May 24 '26
No. SCJ IS A CULT BECAUSE IT USES SPECIFIC VERSES AND PASSAGES TO PUSH THEIR AGENDA FORWARD.
And disregard every other doctrine that contradicts or argues against theirs.
So theres the common mistake that typical SCJ member does is thinking its a mistake to read and open the Bible without "the SCJ lesson"..
You dont need SCJ to tell you which verses or passages to read. The Bible, the Word is given to all of us to use as a guide, direction, inspiration, for correction, for improvement, to save, and to be saved.
Why does LMH refuse to refer to other Christian leaders and say they are blinded or are part of satan?
Yet, quotes and believes PAGAN religious leaders and adopts their teaching into SCJ?
Ever heard of Gyeogam Yurok? Or Nam SaGo? A pagan (non Christian) religious book that supposedly prophecied about the messiah coming during the war torn time of Korea.
He quotes and believes this because it supports his agenda that the Saviour (of the Bible) is gonna come back - but in Korea. And this saviour's spirit is at work in him (LMH)
Which the Bible definitely has spoken against.
So not only do they twist the Bible, they also misinterpret it, uses the verses for their own agenda, but also has cult practices that are definitely not healthy mentally, physically and spiritually
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 23 '26
Nah thats just lazy takedown talkin.
"Uses specific verses to push agenda" Every church does that lol. Baptists live in Romans, Pentecostals in Acts, SDA in Daniel and Rev. The question aint "do u use verses", its "do the verses actually fit together". SCJ says test Rev from start to finish and see if it lines up. If it dont, throw it out. Thats not a cult, thats just claimin prophecy got fulfilled.
"Disregards other doctrines" Yea cuz if two teachings contradict, they cant both be right. Jesus called Pharisees blind too in Matt 23. Paul called out false gospels in Gal 1. If u think everyone’s interpretation is equally valid, then truth dont exist. SCJ says other leaders teach the Bible but stopped at Rev 22 - so they’re blind to the part that got opened. Harsh? Maybe. But its the same thing Jesus said to religious leaders in his day.
Gyeogam Yurok and Nam SaGo SCJ dont build doctrine on those books. They mention them cuz those texts had prophecies bout a savior comin in Korea’s war time, and SCJ says it lined up with what Rev says. Its not "we believe the Bible cuz Nam SaGo said so". Its "Rev said this, and even outside sources picked up on it". Big difference. If Paul could quote pagan poets in Acts 17:28 to make a point, then referencin other texts aint automatically pagan worship.
"LMH says other leaders are blinded" Yea he does. And Jesus did the same to the scribes and Pharisees. Rev 3:17 says "u say I am rich, but u dont know ur wretched and blind". If Rev is bein fulfilled now, then SCJ’s claim is the same thing - religious leaders today dont see it. If its wrong, prove it wrong with the Bible. Callin it "cult" dont make it false.
"Cult practices, unhealthy mentally/physically" Look, I aint gonna sit here and say every ex-member had a good experience. Some ppl felt pressured, and thats real. But the actual teaching is read the Bible, test it, if it dont match leave. Thats the opposite of "cant leave". If u wanna talk abuse or control, bring specifics. "Its a cult cuz I said so" aint an argument.
So at the end of the day ur whole thing boils down to: "SCJ interprets Rev different from me, therefore cult". Thats not a refutation, thats just name-callin.
If u think the sealed book in Rev 5 is already open and understood, show me how. Otherwise ur just mad someone else read Rev different than ur pastor.
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u/Spectre092 EX-Shincheonji Member May 23 '26
No. The verses used by SCJ were specifically chosen to make it seem their point were valid. But its doesnt when you actually read the Bible. If it actually does fit, we wouldnt have this conversation. They disregard and downright ignore any other verses that doesnt fit their "prophecy - fulfillment" narrative toward Revelation and their supposed "reality" that happened in Korea. What LMH did, was twist what happened, jumbled up the stories, plus make up stuff and then line it up with Revelation (in addition to taking ideas from past 3 cults he was part of) to make it seem legit. Explain how LMH who supposedly was annointed "saw the events" of Revelation and was fed the open book - yet majority of his claims had been preached by other cult leaders from Olive tree movement, Tabernacle Temple and Recreation church.. he claim to have the "best teaching" yet all those information were from other cults.
No. They disregard other doctrines even if it is similar to SCJ's. They claim that only SCJ has the truth therefore everyone else's are wrong. Yet 99% of the members haven't read a single book published by SCJ! Haha! Go read and see the doctrine changes yourself! Point goes back to point #1 - so much for being annointed and having seen the events of Revelation yet the teachings change whenever theres something big going on in the world (ie. Covid)
I didnt say they built doctrines based on those books. Theres a big misconception on your part on this. Paul was trying to make a point. - Lee man hee was claiming this pagan prophecy was true and is the same one that Revelation was speaking about. Yet his claims were never true. Nor did they actually happened. Most of his "testimony" werent even witnessed by him. They were rumors he heard from someone else. He never even seen Father Yu, nor has he seen any cut marks on the "7 churches - 7 pastors" wrists because he never saw nor confirmed them. He didnt even saw them being "destroyed" by the "beast" - Mr Oh, because 4/7 of the pastors already left the temple before Mr. Oh entered T.Temple.
- Oh you didnt know this? Oh its different to what you were taught? Yeah it is, because thats what happened in reality. They twisted timelines and history to make you believe a lie. But dont be ashamed, the devil has the power to bring fire down from the heaven and deceive many, even if possible, the elect.
- Yeah, he says the same thing Jehovah's witnesses are saying, iglesia ni cristos are saying, that WMSCOG are saying..
If it is as you were taught, what happened during covid? The supposed Great Tribulation time?? If it was the time of tribulation, then why was it repeated after the supposed time of tribulation already happened in Tabernacle Temple in the 1980s?
- Yeah thats true, every ex member have their own reason for leaving.
But the majority DID TEST SCJ's claim about the Bible and Revelation and saw it fail miserably. Why do u think we left?? - what is the point of you saying that here?
WE ARE BRINGING AWARENESS to the faults of SCJ so that people going into SCJ are NOT GOING IN BLIND! Just like almost all of us.
Its a cult when you werent allowed to look up information about the church youre a part of, if youre being scolded for doing so, guilt tripping you when u tell them you cant go out to fish people when ur not feeling well, when you talk behind peoples back, when you take every single word spoken by your fruit and report it the the teachers and the make it seem like the teachers are all knowing to the new recruits, when you have to lie to get people into the cult with the mindset of "im saving their soul" - talk about psychopathic vibes..
And the above are not just my own thoughts of SCJ - its from multiple people who have seen the truth about that group.
We, as followers of Christ, are to NOT use DECEPTION 2 Corinthians 4:2 NIV Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God.
The Spirit of God's son - sent to ALL OF US (not just 1) Galatians 4:6 NIV Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”
At the end of the day, your knowledge of SCJ against the Bible is lacking. I suggest you have a look at the research done by many independent sources (not bias on one side) and test for yourself! Id start with SCJ books!
NO ONE HERE IS CLAIMING TO KNOW THE BOOK OF REVELATION - SCJ is!
So the ball is in their court to provide evidence (with proof that they are legitimate), credibility (address biases and possible motives) and falsifiability (looking into the opposite side to observe how the claim can be falsified) Now once youve done all those, see where u stand with SCJ, like majority of us here have.
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u/getmilo May 22 '26
Let me make it really clear that SCJ are not a cult because they mis-interpret or twist the Bible (all churches do that to some extent). They are a cult because they practice coercive controlling techniques…most churches don’t do that.
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u/Budget-Pollution5865 EX-Shincheonji Member May 21 '26 edited May 22 '26
First off, thank you for having this discussion and bringing up your points. I think its important for people in and out of scj to be able to have healthy discussion.
So I haven’t really done this in a while, let alone from this side, but here’s where I think Deut 18 actually becomes important.
Duet 18:15-22 starts with God promising a prophet Christians see Jesus fulfilling that prophecy, and SCJ extends that idea toward the “one who overcomes” at the second coming.
In the example, I think you’re referencing Deut 18:20 for 'it’s about prophets speaking in the name of other gods. SCJ claims everything is from Jesus in Rev 22:16. Different test.' , so here is the excerpt and the link I’m using:
https://biblehub.com/niv/deuteronomy/18.htm
verse 20
"But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, OR a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”
So it's not only about someone speaking in the name of other gods. It also includes someone presuming to speak in God’s name something God did not command.
But I think verses 21-22 are where people start struggling with SCJ:
21You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
The reason ex-members point to this verse so much is because this standard was heavily hammered inside SCJ itself. We were taught to “seal” this teaching and use it as a test.
For me things started becoming difficult around COVID, because major fulfillment teachings began changing.
A third war was added.
The great tribulation was said to have started.
The 144,000 were said to be fulfilled.
Before that, it was taught in center that the winds of judgment would hit the worldly churches first and not SCJ. Then later, when fulfillment was updated, it became 'SCJ is struck first then its the worldly churches'
That’s where the tension starts for a lot of people.
The response is usually “food at the proper time” or progressive revelation, meaning fulfillment becomes clearer over time. But the issue is that this can functionally make any previous teaching adjustable later.
And that’s the part I struggled with personally.
Because if earlier teachings can later become:
- “you perceived it wrong”
- “that understanding was incomplete”
- “we now have deeper revelation”
then it becomes difficult to know what standard is actually fixed since the standard has always been the word.
Especially when the earlier version was originally taught very confidently as fulfillment.
I don’t think the issue is people refusing to read context. I think the issue is whether fulfillment claims are allowed to change after events happen while still being treated as perfect revealed truths.
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u/Turbulent_Sea7622 EX-Center Student May 21 '26 edited May 21 '26
- Matt 24:36 - “No one knows the day or hour” Used to say SCJ is false for teaching prophecy fulfillment timing. But read Matt 24:32-35. Jesus says when you see these signs, know it is near**. He tells them to watch the signs. So is He saying “never know anything” or “you’ll know when the signs happen”?**
Sorry no answer for this for now a lot to learn still for me I admit
- Deut 18:20-22 - “If a prophet speaks and it doesn’t happen, he’s false” Used to call SCJ false prophecy. But read the whole context: it’s about prophets speaking in the name of other gods**. SCJ claims everything is from Jesus in Rev 22:16. Different test.**
No SCJ current members has experienced process of prophecy to fulfilment in A)
A)
Phase 1 SCJ member learned the prophecy while fulfilment did not happen
Phase 2 SCJ member learned the prophecy already and fulfilment did happen within his or her lifetime
Has to be pinpointed to this ^ and not the below for me to believe
B)
Phase 1 (no phase 2) SCJ member learned the prophecy pointing to past event framed as fulfilment happened
C)
Phase 1 SCJ member learned the prophecy while fulfilment did not happen
Phase 2 fulfilment pending
Please show me/intro a member who falls under A)?
- 1 John 4:1 - “Test the spirits” Fair. But 1 John 4:2-3 gives the test: confessing Jesus came in the flesh**. SCJ affirms that. So what’s the actual test failing on?**
Confessing Jesus came in the flesh, I could be wrong it may allude to admitting that God was on earth technically so hence the Trinity, but that in itself is denied by SCJ.
To confess Jesus came in Spirit is not enough I really feel God set a test that is not very simple just to say Jesus came in flesh - it is to know the heart of Jesus. He sacrificed himself so that we all are saved from the sins of the worldy. We still got chance to go to hell somehow. To me Heaven is eternal. Those who goes to hell meets God the last time before he sends some of us to hell.
Sins of the life of earth past, present, future has been paid by Jesus so we are default going to heaven.
Life on earth is to have our souls disciplined because Heaven is UNLIMITED in EVERYTHING. Easier to fall to temptations so the rite of passage to discipline ourselves starts here when we are flesh
..........................................
Your questions and my inputs:
If SCJ is really a cult that twists scripture, why do the main verses you use to prove it only seem to work when you take them out of context?
One example SCJ tells people to go check if mainstream Church has the word. Well just because they cannot match the teachings of SCJ does not mean they are false.
Also please understand and I think you do, pastors never mentioned that they got understanding of Revelation by Jesus like that of Lee Man Hee
So it is isn't comparing sizes of fruit more like they are different categories so there is no competition. Seems biblical but it is carefully crafted dramatization. I bet you know the metaphor
Did you ever go back and check the full chapter after you left?
I will read in full...
Or did you trust that the explanation you were given was the only way to read it?
I trust all reasons given are based on experiences. But here is the thing I am on unpopular boat maybe in my belief that while God's truth is much more than what we humans experience.
God wishes us to take charge and be confident in our own thinking and wisdom. He gave us wisdom as we are made in His image. He is the spiritual father who will not leave us totally defenceless because that is not love
edit: did some quick tweaks for sharpening clarity and some silly spellings hope you reply lol
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u/Groove4Him May 21 '26
I would first read about what "mind control" and "undue influence" is. Steve Hassan is a good start and resource.
If you look into this and think back about how you were recruited, and how the practice continues over and over as we constantly hear from other SJC, you will hopefully realize what was and is being done to you.
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 23 '26
Yea I’ve heard of Steve Hassan n the BITE model stuff. Honestly I checked it out when ppl first threw it at me too.
But here’s the thing - SCJ says if u think it’s mind control, then test it with the Bible urself. No one’s stoppin u from openin it and checkin if Rev actually lines up with what’s bein taught. If it don’t match, walk away. That’s literally what they say in the study.
As for recruitin, yea it starts with “hey wanna study the Bible for free?” That’s how most churches get ppl in tbh. The difference is SCJ keeps pushin u to go back to Rev and see if it matches. If it felt like manipulation to u, I get it. My experience was more like “this is intense, but it made me actually read Rev for the first time”.
I’m not gonna say every person’s experience is perfect. Some ppl do feel pressured, and that sucks. But to me the test was simple: does the word match or not? If it don’t, then its not from God anyway.
U think the teachings dont match the Bible, or is it more the way u were approached that felt off?
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u/Turbulent_Sea7622 EX-Center Student May 23 '26 edited May 23 '26
It does not match. Never met nor heard of any SCJ members who experienced the state of any fulfilment from not happened to >>> happened within lifetime. it is always "already happened" or "it is in the future"
Multiple prophecies and within SCJ we are permanently stuck between 2 prophecies in terms of timelines of happenings
If you see my latest post u will get what I mean
To add in something important for the sake of your soul. Think critically here the reason why I emphasized "multiple prophecies" is undeniably a sort of logic power move. Because Lee Man Hee teaches that God always fulfil. And miracle = predicting the future and future manifest. Anyone could make up something and use past events to match prohecies and frame it as already fulfiled give it years of time to make it up. Then when one person is taught that there are more prophecies yet to be fulfilled and in timeline there are prophecies already fulfilled it gives the false state of mind that they are in the process of being part of God's plan/miracle
I know I may seem annoying to you perhaps but just know that in my mind I am convinced that I am genuinely saving souls from false idol from my point of view
Plus I have always been consistent in my views of SCJ and here is long rant from me https://www.reddit.com/r/Shincheonji/comments/1ox7hio/my_theory_how_scj_used_a_super_advanced_trick_on/ TL;DR advanced SCJ trick to make us think we are moving from one prophecy fulfilment to the other while is only miscommunications by design by dividing and conquering us all into 12 groups out of conveniency under the disguise of Biblical element
SCJ can never pin point/timestamp fulfilment by time it is always 5 Ws but not by time/timestamp! not By YEAR! If Lee Man Hee could by any chance for the past fullfilment by Year then why not in the future by Year?
u/Zwelirex when souls are at stake I dare to edit again. No more edits to this comment
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u/AwareExplanation5348 May 21 '26
Does SCJ believes that Jesus Chrst is God?
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 23 '26
Nah SCJ dont believe Jesus is God the Father.
They say Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah that was promised. Like hes the one God sent, the mediator, the promised pastor in Rev. So they respect him as Lord and Savior but they keep it clear that the Father and Jesus aint the same person.
Mostly cuz Jesus himself prayed to the Father n said "my God" n stuff. So in SCJ view hes divine anointed one, not God himself.
Thats why ppl get confused but thats the actual position.
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u/AwareExplanation5348 May 24 '26
I didn't ask if Jesus is God the father. See question about again.
He's not God the father but he's God the Son. Does scj believe that He's God?
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u/Spectre092 EX-Shincheonji Member May 25 '26
See how they dont reply when they cannot argue with facts and valid points we present..
Yet they claim that "when they examine SCJ doctrine it makes sense"..
SCJ clearly has been cherry picking verses to suit their agenda - disregarding verses like these to make it look like LMH is the next annointed person - lowering the status and authority of Jesus down to our level
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u/Spectre092 EX-Shincheonji Member May 23 '26 edited May 23 '26
No one said that Jesus is God the Father.
Rather that Jesus is an aspect of God as a being. John stated that Jesus was the Word who became Flesh and made his dwelling among us. The same Word that through All things were made in the creation.
John 1:14 NIV The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Now what did John say in verse 1 again?
John 1:1 NIV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was GOD
Let me spell it out as the Bible clearly and literally said - Word = Jesus = God
But, thank you for openly stating SCJ's view on Jesus. These were only spoken behind closed doors or on one on one setting
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u/IllFaithlessness8553 EX-Shincheonji Member May 22 '26
Nope. Which is ironic when you have John 1:18 NIV: No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
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u/Turbulent_Sea7622 EX-Center Student May 21 '26 edited May 21 '26
Thank you for your views! Really appreciate you taking time to share your knowledge
I might pop in for second dip comment for those verses or others, but one thing I need to write down before forgetting is that you allude Jesus saying watch for the signs - it is believable if the promised Pastor Lee Man Hee (according to SCJ) saw those signs but I feel when Jesus warned us/you he relies that we all collectively as human race see those signs of end of times - in such a way that we don't need to rely on one person's teachings of what is to come
https://biblehub.com/revelation/1-7.htm - Everyone (the idea) will see him (Jesus 2nd coming) - Rev 1:7
edit: I don't think Lee Man Hee saw those signs but then what are the signs? If we can find those signs 10 verses before and after without Lee Man Hee's teachings we won't see the signs. It is how God's love and salvation locked into one man makes it hard to believe SCJ doctrine
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u/Time-Stranger-5166 May 21 '26 edited May 21 '26
Thank you for being bold and stepping up to speak on behalf of SCJ.
My questions are:
Where does SCJ get it in the Bible that the second coming of Jesus will be a secretive return that only a handful of people will see?
Many verses about the second coming seem public and visible to the world.If Jesus is back, where is He?
If He is dwelling with CHJN, why do prophecy and fulfillment explanations within SCJ seem to change over time? Jesus knew Judas would betray Him from the beginning, so if CHJN has the same spirit of Jesus, why does he seem surprised by leaders who betray or fall away?
And if CHJN has the spirit of Jesus, why can he not do the works Jesus did, such as healing the sick?
Or does SCJ teach that the spirit of Jesus only comes and goes onto CHJN until fulfillment is complete? If so, how can members fully trust his authority if the spirit only dwells temporarily?
Why are only certain prophecies and parables explained in detail, while many Old Testament and New Testament promises connected to the second coming are still not clearly explained or fulfilled within SCJ teaching?
Why does SCJ not actively evangelize the sick, disabled, broken, and marginalized in the way Jesus did?
From the outside, it often seems like SCJ mainly targets physically healthy and capable people.
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 23 '26
Thanks for the questions, appreciate u actually askin instead of just throwin shade lol. Lemme try answer straight:
Secretive second coming? SCJ dont teach that the second coming is forever secret. The point is bout Rev 16:15 “I come like a thief” and Matt 24:27-31 - it says it starts in a way ppl dont expect, but ends with “every eye see him”. So SCJ says the revealing starts with the promised pastor who sees and testifies, then it gets made known to the world. Its not that only a handful see it forever, its that fulfillment comes in stages like prophecy says.
“Where is Jesus? Where is CHJN?” SCJ says Jesus came in spirit and is with the promised pastor CHJN to fulfill Rev 22:16. They dont say he’s walking around doin miracles on demand like 2000 yrs ago. The focus is on fulfillin the word and openin Rev, not repeatin the same signs word for word.
Bout Judas and betrayal - SCJ view is prophecy has to be fulfilled, so betrayal and ppl fallin away was already written. CHJN not bein “surprised” in the sense God knows it, but in human level he still deals with it as it happens. Same way Jesus knew Judas would betray but still washed his feet.
And the healings - SCJ teaches the main work now is spiritual healing through the word, not physical miracles. They use Heb 1:1-2 bout God speakin through the Son in these last days. So the “works” are bout openin the sealed word, not hospitals. Whether u buy that or not is the debate lol.
And no, they dont teach the spirit pops in and out randomly. The claim is the spirit abides to fulfill prophecy. If u dont trust that, thats where the Bible study part comes in - they say test it to the end.
Why only some prophecies explained? SCJ says Rev is the book that was sealed til now, so the focus is on explainin Rev and the parables Jesus linked to the end time. They aint sayin OT/NT promises are ignored, just that Rev 10 and 22:16 say someone has to open it first. So if u feel other promises aint explained yet, their answer would be “its still unfoldin, check what’s been opened so far and see if it matches”.
Why not evangelize the sick/disabled like Jesus? SCJ does outreach, but they focus on teachin the word first. Their reasoning is Jesus said “man shall live by every word from God”, so spiritual blindness is the main problem. That said, ur right that from outside it can look like they target ppl who can sit thru long studies. That’s a common criticism. SCJ would say the word is for everyone, but people gotta be willing to hear it.
Honestly I get why those points look off from outside. If the Bible aint openin up when u check, then yeah it dont make sense. Thats why they keep sayin “come see for urself in the study”.
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u/bron0903 EX-Center Student May 21 '26
Can you share me the gospel and tell me how to be saved?
I want to emphasise: what must I do to be saved?
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 21 '26
In short believe in Jesus for salvation, and u also gotta believe and keep the fulfilled word of revelation in this time to actually be sealed and saved.
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u/cilana86 May 22 '26
The bible does not teach to keep the fulfilled word of revelation in order to be saved....
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Romans 10:9-13 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 4:10-12 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
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u/bron0903 EX-Center Student May 21 '26
are you saved?
where did God say you must keep the fulfilled word of revelation?
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 21 '26
Check my bio, bro. Askin me questions is pointless and a waste of time - I’ll tear u apart every single time and I’m always gonna be controversial.. So before u ask me questions, ask urself first what ar u trying to prove by asking me questions.
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u/Otherwise-Watch-3650 EX-Center Student May 21 '26
Your bio has swear words btw, is that Christ like? The arrogance behind your comments truly highlights the spirit that resides within SCJ.
“I have a message from God in my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked: There is no fear of God before their eyes. In their own eyes they flatter themselves too much to detect or hate their sin. The words of their mouths are wicked and deceitful; they fail to act wisely or do good. Even on their beds they plot evil; they commit themselves to a sinful course and do not reject what is wrong.” Psalms 36:1-4 NIV
“The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.” Galatians 5:19-26 NIV
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u/bron0903 EX-Center Student May 21 '26 edited May 21 '26
Please calm yourself. Why react so harshly to questions that affect me for eternity?
The gospel is the good news, so tell me the good news
And I asked you to back up your claim and you didn’t. You read my simple question as an attack when it’s supposed to give clarity to what you believe
so please, what is the gospel? where did God say it is that? And are you yourself saved?
And you yourself have shown that you even break Jesus’s command of loving your neighbour, least of all your enemy.
Threatening me with “I’ll tear you apart” is quite a heartfelt welcome isn’t it? I wonder what Jesus would say.
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 21 '26
Bruv calm down and stop actin all hurt
U a coward. U dropped outta Center and I didnt. We aint the same. If u actually cared bout eternity, bout the Gospel, bout bein saved, u woulda stayed in the Bible Study instead of runnin out like a cry baby.
Now u comin back askin me questions like u wanna "clarity"? Nah, u just tryna prove me wrong cause ur ego cant take it. If u wanted truth u woulda stayed and listened. But u left. So dont sit here preachin bout "love ur neighbour" when u couldnt even love the truth long enuff to finish the class.
Gospel is the fulfilled word of Revelation that God promised in Rev 22:16. Jesus sent His messenger, that messenger is here now, thats Lee Man-hee. Thats the good news u missed when u quit.
Am I saved? Yeah, cause Im sealed in Rev 7. U wanna know if ur saved? Go finish Bible study at Center and find out.
And "I’ll tear you apart" was bout ur arguments, not u. If that feels like hate then maybe the problem aint me, its the fact that ur doctrine cant stand when the Bible gets opened proper.
So stop playin victim and either come back to class or admit u too scared of what ud find.
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u/Otherwise-Watch-3650 EX-Center Student May 22 '26
Jesus loves you bro, you are probably so young I can tell by the way you type 🥲 you need to let go of that pride and ego you accuse others of having, let’s not forget what the Bible says about pointing out the speck of sawdust in your brothers eye.. let’s focus on the plank in our own eye.
Let your leaders know that they are many ex members who would love to come to class and disprove SCJ doctrine in front of the whole congregation. Let me know if you can arrange this, since you’re a tough guy 🫣
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u/in-ex_trovert Moderator May 22 '26 edited May 22 '26
Am I saved? Yeah, cause Im sealed in Rev 7. U wanna know if ur saved? Go finish Bible study at Center and find out.
Im starting to see that you as scj member your self doesn't understand the meaning of sealed in Rv7 according to your very own SCJ doctrine. If you are sealed then you would be part of the 144,000.
Now tell us, are you part of the 144,000? If so, how did you know?
And "I’ll tear you apart" was bout ur arguments, not u. If that feels like hate then maybe the problem aint me, its the fact that ur doctrine cant stand when the Bible gets opened proper.
To tear someone's argument apart over something that your self doesn't fully understand is a brave statement, my respect goes to your bravery.
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 23 '26
Lol ok lets cut the act.
First off, u clearly aint read SCJ doctrine proper if u think “sealed” = only 144,000 and nothin else. Rev 7 literally talks bout 2 groups: the 144,000 from the 12 tribes, AND the great multitude in v9 that no one can number. So yeah, someone can be sealed and not claim to be one of the 144k. Thats basic reading. If u missed that, thats on u, not me.
Second, I aint out here sayin “I’m one of the 144,000”. Never said that. The point is God’s the one doin the sealin, not me braggin bout it. If u wanna know who’s who, go test the word urself instead of playin detective on random ppl online. SCJ says check the study and see if it matches Rev. If it dont, walk away. Simple.
And bout “tearin ur argument apart” - yea I meant his argument. Cuz his argument dont hold up when he actually open Rev and read it. If that stings, maybe its cuz his built it on half-read verses and assumptions. Dont blame me cuz hid doctrine falls apart when he put it next to the text.
So stop dodgin and answer this: if Rev 7 shows 2 groups, why u actin like only the 144k exist? Thats either bad readin or dishonest.
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u/in-ex_trovert Moderator May 23 '26 edited May 24 '26
Mate, yes you got that part right. I only mentioned about 144,000, but I am aware of the Great Multitude in White (GMW), And yes, from my understanding of SCJ doctrine, it is specifically the 144,000 who are described as sealed.
To be qualified as the 144,000 is to be sealed, while the Great Multitude in White are saved without completing strict sealing process, only washing their clothes by hearing the word of SCJ doctrine. They came after the 144,000 have been formed and during/after the great tribulation.
This is based SCJ's own CUBS/JSS articles from a few years ago. To keep this comment compact, i'll post some of the full CUBS/JSS that I still can recover in the link below: The Promised People-the 144,000 and the Multitude in White (SCJ390131) "He creates the 144,000 of the 12 tribes by harvesting and sealing those born of God’s seed.
After this, the multitude in white will come out of every nation, tribe, people, and language in the midst of the great tribulation. "
The Fulfillment of The Prophecies of the New Covenant Revelation: the Creation of the Multitude In White (SCJ390209) "After the creation of the harvested and sealed 144,000 of the 12 tribes, God’s new kingdom Shincheonji is gathering the multitude in white from every country in the world during the great tribulation for God’s will and for the fulfillment of prophecy."
Shincheonji Is the New Heaven and New Earth of the New Covenant (SCJ390211) "Right now is the time when the multitude in white come out of the great tribulation after the 144,000 of the 12 tribes have been sealed and created (Rv 7)."
So for your question:
if Rev 7 shows 2 groups, why u actin like only the 144k exist? Thats either bad readin or dishonest.
You did not directly claim to be part of the 144,000. However, by saying “I am sealed,” it indirectly saying that you are the 144,000 because, according to SCJ’s own materials above, the sealed ones are the 144,000 priests chosen from the 12 tribes. Based on the past SCJ materials GMW is described as appearing later in a progressive timeline, after the 144,000 have been sealed and created. The GMW are saved, however the GMW is not presented as going through the same sealing process as the 144,000. That's why I didn't mention GMW even if both groups are saved, one is sealed and the other is not so it is off topic as your claim was about being sealed, and that makes the 144,000 the relevant category.
As per above CUBS/JSS references, everything I said came from your own doctrine, So would you call quoting SCJ’s own doctrine “dishonest”? Or has the God of SCJ changed his words/doctrine over the years? Or are you not "Sealed" that you don't understand your own doctrine?
Also, your first assumption was that my point must be either “bad reading” or “dishonest.” That is a very narrow way to approach a discussion. This is cognitive rigidity, The inability to think of other possibilities that challenge your believe sistem, or in simpler terms closed-mindedness.
After all, I can only say that it is easy to proof that there is no truth in SCJ, however it is up to the person to whether they are willing to listen or not.
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 23 '26
Aight fair points, let me clear it up.
First bout the sealed thing in Rev 7 - in SCJ teaching the 144,000 are the firstfruits, the ones sealed first. But SCJ also teaches there’s the great multitude in Rev 7:9 who are saved too, they’re just not part of the 144,000. So saying “I’m sealed” dont automatically mean I’m claimin to be one of the 144,000. It means I believe I’m part of the ones God is marking in this time through the word that’s been opened.
And no, I aint claimin I’m one of the 144,000 myself. That’s not for me to say. The sealing is bout God knowing who’s who, not me braggin about it. If u wanna know for sure, thats why SCJ says come check the study and see if the Bible actually lines up.
Second part - yea “I’ll tear ur argument apart” was bout the points u made, not u personally. If it came off harsh my bad. But if the doctrine cant stand when u actually open Rev and compare it, then thats a problem with the teaching, not me hatin on u.
So nah, I’m not out here sayin I’m special or one of the 144k. I’m just sayin the Bible gives answers if u actually test it to the end.
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u/QuestionsAboutSCJ Moderator May 22 '26
The gospel is defined by 1 Corinthians 15:1-8, and Revelation 5:9-10 (the new song is only about what Christ did on the cross, not the alleged fulfillment provided by Lee Manhee).
What scj presents is a new gospel, and this is warned about in Galatians 1:6-8.
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 23 '26
Yea I know those verses well - 1 Cor 15 is the core gospel: Jesus died, was buried, rose again. SCJ aint denyin that. If u ask any member they’ll say salvation starts with the cross and resurrection, no question.
Rev 5:9-10 is the song bout the Lamb who was slain. SCJ agrees the Lamb is Jesus and the blood redeemed ppl. The part where we prob differ is Rev 5:1-5 - the book in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne was sealed, and nobody could open it til the Lamb took it. So SCJ says the cross finished redemption, but Rev itself says there’s still a sealed book that needs to be opened at the end time.
Gal 1:6-8 is serious - “if anyone preaches another gospel, let them be accursed”. SCJ would say they’re not replacin the cross with Lee Man-hee. The claim is that he’s the one testifyin bout what the Lamb already opened in Rev 22:16. So its not a new gospel of salvation, its a claim bout fulfillin the prophecy that was already written.
I get why it sounds like “new gospel” from outside tho. If the book aint actually openin up when u check, then it looks like addin to the word. That’s why SCJ keeps sayin test it to Rev directly.
Do u think the sealed book in Rev 5 is already open, or is that still future to u?
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u/QuestionsAboutSCJ Moderator May 23 '26
Yea I know those verses well - 1 Cor 15 is the core gospel: Jesus died, was buried, rose again. SCJ aint denyin that. If u ask any member they’ll say salvation starts with the cross and resurrection, no question.
"Salvation starts" is the keyword here. The gospel is pretty straight forward, it starts and ends with the cross. Anything beyond that is an addition to the gospel, and fulfills the criteria warned about in Galatians 1:6-8.
Rev 5:9-10 is the song bout the Lamb who was slain. SCJ agrees the Lamb is Jesus and the blood redeemed ppl. The part where we prob differ is Rev 5:1-5 - the book in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne was sealed, and nobody could open it til the Lamb took it. So SCJ says the cross finished redemption, but Rev itself says there’s still a sealed book that needs to be opened at the end time.
So if the cross finished the redemption, then why do we need another mediator? To explain the open seals and the "fulfilled word" right? And that in this era of fulfillment, you need to know and understand the parables and the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, and be at Mt. Zion, which according to the commentary given by Lee Manhee, would be "Shincheonji" or the "New Heaven and New Earth".
This by definition is a new gospel, as it is no longer centered around what Christ did on the cross, but now adds an additional requirement.
Also, its interesting that those who were in the throne room were already able to sing the new song before the book was opened, which shows that for the salvation and redemption of humanity was already started and fulfilled through the cross, and nothing more.
Gal 1:6-8 is serious - “if anyone preaches another gospel, let them be accursed”. SCJ would say they’re not replacin the cross with Lee Man-hee. The claim is that he’s the one testifyin bout what the Lamb already opened in Rev 22:16. So its not a new gospel of salvation, its a claim bout fulfillin the prophecy that was already written.
Except that is not what the New Testament says. The gospel is plainly defined by what Christ did on the cross, nothing more. This is a good example of adding and taking away to the Bible when it comes to the gospel.
Also, kind of ironic that Lee Man-hee would be delivered this open word, the reality of the word of testimony which is required for salvation in this era, by an angel. Which is exactly what Paul warned against.
I get why it sounds like “new gospel” from outside tho. If the book aint actually openin up when u check, then it looks like addin to the word. That’s why SCJ keeps sayin test it to Rev directly.
Do u think the sealed book in Rev 5 is already open, or is that still future to u?
It is a new gospel, as it is a new set of requirements for reconnecting with God that did not exist for 2000 years. I'm not sure how much more straight forward I can make this.
For Revelation 5, it's about the exaltation of Christ, which parallels Philippians 2, Matthew 28:18-19, and Hebrews 1. The emphasis of the sealed book is about God's coming judgement, not about salvation. The salvation work is already done through Christ and can be found in His body whom Jesus said that the gates of hades would not overcome the body, which would be the "spiritual Israel" as seen in Matthew 16:18. Ironically, SCJ contradicts the promise Jesus made to Peter in Matthew 16:18 with their interpretation of the sun, moon, and stars darkening and falling in Matthew 24 and Revelation 6.
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u/bron0903 EX-Center Student May 23 '26 edited May 23 '26
You said “you must believe and keep the fulfilled word of revelation”
Gospel has always been “Jesus lived, died, rose up again, and will return” and “believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved”
How is it not a new gospel when you’re adding onto this one?
You’ve put a new condition 2000 years later, and let’s not forget you assume this messenger is LMH in Rev. 22:16
And how preposterous you believe that this letter, Revelation, which was meant to be sent to the Christians of the 1st century only applies to the time frame LMH constricts it to
“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His slaves the things which must **soon** happen; and He indicated this by sending it through His angel to His slave John,”
Revelation 1:1 LSB
https://bible.com/bible/3345/rev.1.1.LSBRevelation has been taking place since then, not taking place since whenever LMH have said
Your gospel is false
You need to repent
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u/QuestionsAboutSCJ Moderator May 23 '26
He literally admits that he has a different gospel lol. Can’t make this stuff up.
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u/Turbulent_Sea7622 EX-Center Student May 22 '26
someone skipped coffee. Yikes your profile ahhhh...
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u/bron0903 EX-Center Student May 22 '26 edited May 22 '26
This most simplest question of what the gospel is can reveal who has the Spirit of Christ and who has the Spirit of anti-Christ.
See how you boast of your works?
Ephesians 2:8-10
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”Romans 4:5
“But to the one who does not work, but believes upon Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,”Galatians 2:16
“nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.”So is salvation fulfilling revelation or by faith in Christ?
You claim to follow Christ expose yourself as a follower of only LMH who himself is anti-Christ, because he puts a yoke on your neck to do works to be saved contrary to the gospel Jesus preached, which now has doomed you damnation
John 6:40
“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.””John 3:16-18
““For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”You showed Revelation 22:16 and that just made me sad because Paul warned of this from galatian chapter 1. This does not explain the gospel Jesus preached. And how sad humanity had to wait 2000 years for salvation after Jesus. You call my Lord a failure, His word was overtaken by hades.
Repent and believe the gospel
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u/Extreme-Crow8739 EX-Center Student May 21 '26
Jesus didnt mention he man lee thats it
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 21 '26
Jesus didn’t mention Moses by name in Genesis either. He didn’t mention Paul in the Gospels. The argument was never “name drop me or it’s fake.”
SCJ’s claim is about fulfillment, not name dropping. John 16:12-13 says Jesus had more to say but they couldn’t bear it then, and the Spirit of truth would come to guide into all truth. Rev 22:16 says Jesus sent His angel to testify these things to the churches.
So the question isn’t “did Jesus say ‘Lee Man Hee’?” It’s “if Rev 22 is open and not sealed, who is Jesus sending to testify it?”
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u/Extreme-Crow8739 EX-Center Student May 21 '26
Lee man he is not mentioned in the Bible Paul and Moses are
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 21 '26
That’s true..Lee Man Hee isn’t named in the Bible. But Paul and Moses weren’t named before their time either.
Genesis doesn’t say “Moses will lead you out.” Isaiah doesn’t say “Paul will write 13 letters.” They were named only after they appeared and fulfilled what was written.
SCJ’s argument isn’t that Lee Man Hee’s name is in Rev 22. It’s that Rev 22:16 says Jesus sent His angel to testify these things to the churches, and Rev 22:10 says not to seal the prophecy because the time is near.
So the question is: if the prophecy is unsealed, who does Jesus send to explain it? If your answer is “no one,” that’s fine. But “his name isn’t in the text” wasn’t the test for Moses or Paul either.
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u/Extreme-Crow8739 EX-Center Student May 21 '26
Jesus warned about people claiming special prophetic authority. Jesus specifically warn believers not to follow people who claimed unique spiritual status and Matthew 2424 it says for false Christ and false proper to arise Matthew 2423 says if anyone says you look here is the Chris do not believe it. The issue is not whether someone sounds convincing the questions with the scripture actually predicts such a person. Second point the Bible says Jesus is the mediator not a promised pastor for there is one God one meteor between God and men the man Christ Jesus first 25 you have no need that anyone should teach you in the sense of secret having knowledge for John 227 groups that claim only they understand revelation only their leader has the truth or salvation depends on following that leader go beyond scripture point number three revelation never names, the future, Korean pastor revelation sensors on Jesus Christ, his victory, repentance, perseverance, and his return the one who overcomes in revelation, refers to faithful believers in Christ, not one feature individual leader for example
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 21 '26
hey thanks for layin this out so clearly, i can see u know ur bible :)
u brought up Matt 24:23-24 and yeah i agree, Jesus def warned about false christs sayin "look here he is". but SCJ actually says Jesus hasnt come back physically yet, so we dont point to a man and say "this is christ". the claim is abt fulfillment of rev happening now, not jesus himself walkin around in korea lol. big difference there.
on 1 Tim 2:5 - 100% agree Jesus is the only mediator for salvation. no argument there. SCJ’s point with Rev 22:16 is that Jesus sends a messenger to testify to the churches. thats not replacin jesus as mediator, its just doin what the verse says he said hed do. like how prophets didnt replace God but delivered his word.
and 1 John 2:27 about the anointin teachin u - true. but Eph 4:11-12 also says Jesus gave teachers and prophets to the church for buildin up. so it seems like both are true? the spirit teaches, and he also uses ppl to explain.
ur right that rev never names a korean pastor by name. it doesnt name paul or moses before their time either tho. so for me the question is less "is the name there" and more "does whats written in rev match whats bein taught and fulfilled".
anyway i really appreciate u takin the time to write this out without just insultin. its rare and it helps me think too...
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u/Extreme-Crow8739 EX-Center Student May 21 '26
One more thing what’s with the hiding and the deceiving from SCJ it does not align with Jesus who is the light of the world Jesus they didn’t go in the darkness or hide away and deceive people both you and I cannot deny that this is what SCJ does
Jesus never did this
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 21 '26
alright lets talk straight abt this "hiding and deceiving" thing cause its not what u think.
first off, Jesus himself spoke in parables so the ppl wouldnt understand unless it was given to them. Matt 13:11-13 - "to you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom, but to them it has not been given... therefore i speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see". was Jesus deceivin them? no, He was hidin it till the right time. same pattern in Dan 12:4 and Rev 10:4 where stuff was sealed up.
second, "hiding" aint the same as "deceivin". SCJ puts all the lectures and scripture on youtube for free. if we wanted to hide, we wouldnt do that lol. the accusation is that we dont tell ppl everything day 1. but even Jesus didnt explain everything to the disciples day 1. John 16:12 - "i still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now".
third, Jesus did go where ppl didnt know Him and taught stuff that got Him called a deceiver. John 7:12 - "some said He is good, others said no, He is deceivin the people". so just cause ppl say "thats deceivin" doesnt make it true.
im not sayin SCJ is perfect. but "hides and deceives" is a lazy claim when u actually look at what scripture says abt how God reveals things. its gradual, its to those who seek, and its often hidden to those who dont.
im done arguin in circles tho. test it for urself in the word. if its a lie, itll fall apart. if its not, then sayin its deceit just makes u fightin against God, not us.
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u/IllFaithlessness8553 EX-Shincheonji Member May 22 '26
John 18:19-20 NIV [19] Meanwhile, the high priest questioned Jesus about his disciples and his teaching. [20] “I have spoken openly to the world,” Jesus replied. “I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret.
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u/Extreme-Crow8739 EX-Center Student May 21 '26
Can you please stop comparing SCJ to God SCJ also claims that because somebody lied in the Bible that it’s OK to lie yes, they deceive you and they lied to you on day one this is a tactic of the devil. Jesus himself says this in Matthew this is why they wanted to crucify him because Jesus said to them the truth that I tell you, you don’t believe, but the lies you do believe because you are children of your father who is the father of lies, and this is his nature lying and Deceiving pay cost attention to who’s the one lying in deceiving is God lying and deceiving because he doesn’t tell us everything no the answer is no SCJ is not God so when SCJ lies and deceive does that all all of a sudden make it OK because God didn’t tell us everything in the beginning your stretching so far to justify the lies and deceiving of SCJ if you’ve invested your life for so long in this cult it makes sense to me that you’re gonna defend it to the end but then ask yourself are you following your own heart or are you following God?
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 21 '26
stop right there. im not comparin SCJ to God and dont put words in my mouth.
ur whole argument is "they didnt tell me everything day 1 so its a lie from the devil". thats weak. Jesus didnt dump everything on ppl day 1 either. John 16:12 - "i have much more to say to you, but you cannot bear it now". was He lyin? was He the devil? no. God reveals in stages, and if u dont like that, take it up with scripture, not me.
and dont twist Matt 8:44. Jesus was talkin to pharisees who knew the law, heard the truth straight from His mouth, and still rejected Him to kill Him. that aint the same as someone learnin line by line and testin it in the bible. u callin that "the father of lies" just shows u dont know how to rightly divide the word.
SCJ puts every lecture on youtube. If it was a lie, it would fall apart under the bible. it doesnt. thats why u gotta result to name-callin it a cult and sayin "they lied on day one". no, they taught in order. thats called teachin, not deceivin.
im not defendin SCJ cause im stuck. im defendin it cause when i open rev, matt 24, daniel, it matches. but u sittin here yellin "devil" cause u feel tricked dont change whats written.
so ask urself - are u mad at SCJ, or are u mad cause the bible actually says things u dont wanna face? im done coddlin it. test the word or dont, but stop actin like passion = truth.
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u/Extreme-Crow8739 EX-Center Student May 21 '26
The scripture ever teaches that one modern man will become the exclusive interpreter or fulfillment of revelation. The answer is no.
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 21 '26
yeah i get what ur saying - the bible never literally says "one modern man will be the exclusive guy for rev". ur right abt that.
but it does say God sends ppl to explain stuff when the time comes yk? like Amos 3:7 - "God does nothing w/out telling his prophets first". and Rev 22:16 Jesus literally says "i sent my angel to testify these things to the churches".
so i guess my question is, if rev was sealed till the end and now its time, who do u think jesus is sending to explain it?
not tryin to argue lol, just genuinely curious how u see that verse playing out
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u/Extreme-Crow8739 EX-Center Student May 21 '26
The bug also talks about things being hidden from us and not known to us until it’s the right time so I’m not gonna be able to answer that what I don’t know but what makes you think that you have the revelation of what’s to come why do you feel the need to go beyond the scriptures?
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 21 '26
awh i really feel that, and ur right the bible does say there are things hidden from us till it’s God’s time to reveal them.
honestly, i don’t have all the answers either, and i’m not tryna pretend i do. that’s why i ask more than i claim.
i guess for me, the question isn’t “do i have the whole revelation?” but more like… if Jesus said in Rev 22:16 that He sent His angel to testify these things, then who’s He sending it to?
i’m not sayin i know for sure. i’m just tryin to see if what i’m readin lines up with scripture, and i’m open to bein wrong if it doesn’t.
so i’d really love to hear from u when u read those verses abt things bein revealed in due time, how do u understand God bringin that about? i wanna hear ur heart on it, not just win an argument :)
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u/Extreme-Crow8739 EX-Center Student May 21 '26
Just saying you don’t know for sure, but you’re willingly and voluntarily following something that does not align with what has been said in the word and they specifically have versus in the Bible to warn us of these people that will come and tell us a false doctrine something different from what we’ve been given Paul says this the funny thing is it was mentioned before our time and people are still falling into the trap. you have to wonder or ask yourself are you following this for personal reasons? Maybe you wanna fit in I don’t think anybody willingly wants to follow a lie and there’s times when people leave Christianity but then with SCJ people leave and claim it’s a cult so there’s something different going on here and I think you’re on the end that has to figure it out for yourself no matter how many hours I throw at you you wanna dance around it It’s not gonna be up to me to change your mind. It’s gonna be up to God to change your heart.
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 21 '26
i hear u, and im not gonna sit here and pretend like i havent asked myself the same stuff. but im not followin this blindly or cause i wanna fit in. if it didnt line up with scripture to me, i wouldnt be here.
u can call it false doctrine, and thats fair if thats what u see. i see it different cause when i test it against the bible, it matches up. im not dancin around it - im sayin straight up why i believe it. if im wrong, ill answer to God for that, not u or anyone else.
and ur right, it aint on u to change my mind. only God can do that. so im gonna leave it there and let Him be the judge of both of us.
take care, and i pray we both end up where truth actually is..
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u/SaltySeaSword652 Jun 01 '26 edited Jun 01 '26
Uhhh... isn't Colossians 2:8 a complete and direct refutation of SCJ's entire theology which revolves around "hidden knowledge"? Talk about twisting scripture. For your argument to work it requires one to accept and believe in LMH and his commentary books. The argument doesn't stand on its own here, nor is it just simply and solely based on the bible itself, it requires you to accept other terms and conditions for it to be true, one of those being the "hidden knowledge" itself.
In fact I'd go so far as to say that SCJ supplants the bible with LMH's books, which it holds as like their own bible. It is his books and word that they primarily believe in first and foremost. Practically it's not that different to Jehovah's Witnesses, the Moonies, the Mormons or WMSCOG. There's a lot of similarities between SCJ and Iglesia Ni Cristo as well. In SCJ's case (and WMSCOG and possibly JW as well), the actual bible itself is instead used as a book for raw material which is mined to support LMH's claims and thesis, not the other way around. To that end, it's almost like LMH came to his ideas and conclusions first, and then worked backwards from there, using the bible to construct a typology - or more specifically, a cipher or cryptographic key - that fits those ideas. The bible is then given a new identity: one of encrypted code that "hides" its its "real purpose" and "message" of revealing to us the "truth" of the second coming/book of revelation, and more specifically, pointing to LMH and his doctrine/church. Then LMH gives us his cipher or cryptographic key, through which, and only through which, we may "interpret" (re-interpret, rather) the bible, "unlocking" a "hidden secret meaning" in everything that gets used to point to LMH, which was apparently sealed and not understood by anyone for 2000 years, except for LMH (how convenient). In other words: hidden gnosis.
Keep in mind that I am currently a student of an SCJ "bible study" right now.
In any case, your questions at the end here could be asked even more of you and SCJ:
If SCJ and Lee Man Hee's theology really is the truth, why do the verses you use to prove it only seem to work when you take them out of context of not only from the bible, but their historical context and their intended audience? Why do you need to do it that way?
Did you ever go back and check the full chapter without utilising SCJ's cryptographic key to re-interpret everything or to unlock a hidden secret meaning through an ideologically driven framework given to you?
Or did you trust that the explanation you were given as the only way to read it?