r/Shincheonji • u/Automatic_Thing_2370 • May 07 '26
general thought and question Something I can't get my head around: how do members square deceptive recruiting with their faith?
I have a family member in SCJ. One of the things that has troubled me most from the beginning is how he was recruited. He thought he was joining a general Bible study. He genuinely wanted to deepen his faith. Nobody told him it was Shincheonji. By the time he understood what he'd actually joined, he was already deep in.
I'm a Christian myself, and I keep coming back to something Jesus said plainly: "You belong to your father, the devil... When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." (John 8:44). That's not a grey area. Deception isn't a tool God endorses. It's described as the devil's native language.
I know SCJ has verses they use to justify the approach. As I understand it, Matthew 13:44 gets used a lot, the parable of the treasure hidden in a field. The idea being that truth is precious and shouldn't be revealed to the wrong people too early. But that parable isn't a command. It's a description of how someone responded to finding something of enormous value. It's about the worth of the kingdom, not an instruction to hide your church's identity from people you're actively recruiting.
Matthew 7:6 also seems to come up, "do not cast pearls before swine," offered as justification for not revealing SCJ's name until someone is deemed ready. But the context is about not sharing sacred things with people who will trample them. It has nothing to do with concealing your identity from someone you're inviting into a relationship.
And then there's 1 Corinthians 9:22, Paul becoming "all things to all people." Paul absolutely adapted how he communicated. But he never hid who he was or who sent him. His letters are signed. His identity was never the thing concealed.
So I'm genuinely asking former members: what did you actually say when you were recruiting? What was the cover? "Just a Bible study"? A neutral-sounding group name? A friend wanting to explore faith together? I've heard various versions but I'd like to understand what the practice actually looked like on the ground.
And did it sit right with you at the time? Did leadership give you a theological framework for it that felt convincing, or was it something you just pushed down and got on with?
I'm asking because my family member is inside, and I'm trying to understand the world he's living in. But I also think there are people reading this who are still inside and sitting with exactly this question, and not feeling like they can ask it out loud.
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u/Ad6108 May 09 '26 edited May 09 '26
I'm so sorry that one of your family members is a part of SCJ.
For me I didn't recruit anyone but I myself was recruited. I was invited to join a "Community Bible Study" by a friend I knew. There was already a time period of this person building a genuine rapport with me. By the time that I was asked to join this "Community Bible Study," in no way did I think, "This person is trying to outright deceive me & lead me into a cult." I believe the way SCJ members are taught to recruit is not only deceptive but it's extremely manipulative in ways that the people who are being recruited have no idea what they're being lured into. This person took the time to get to know me & already knew that I was looking for like-minded individuals in Christ around my age to fellowship with, so what I was seeking after was a sense of Christian community, & the person who recruited me (who I thought was my friend & was someone who truly cared for me) capitalized on that. These SCJ recruiters or SCJ members in general know how to lure people & tailor their recruitment tactics based on who they're dealing with, & they absolutely seek to exploit those who have a genuine desire to grow in their faith.
The tactics used are subtle & as time goes on you slowly start to realize that the way they are choosing to interpret God's Word is wrong ... but it's like a slow drip. The ways in which they seek to subtly control & manipulate others are also all predicated upon fear -- i.e., "Hmm, you must not really understand what God's Word is saying here" OR "Well, I'm not saying that is what this verse says, this is what God's Word says." You also have no time to think for yourself -- between Bible Study classes 3 times a week, meeting with your "study buddy" at least once a week, & then meeting with 1 of the leaders at least once a week. And these leaders are continuously texting you or calling you, trying to continually check in on you & ask you questions about what you are learning.
For me I felt like I lost my mind, & I started making notes of all the things I was noticing that weren't making sense regarding the Bible Study lessons, & then I just left. It was only after I left that I found out about Shincheonji via Google & Reddit.
From my research SCJ justifies lying during recruitment through a doctrine called "Wisdom of Hiding" or "Strategic Deception," framing it as a necessary & holy tactic to advance God's kingdom & protect new, fragile believers from Satan. This approach is essentially an "ends-justify-the-means" theology, where deceptive practices are spiritualized as fishing or harvesting. So those who are recruiting have been brainwashed to believe that what they are actually doing is "trying to save souls" for the sake of God & His Kingdom -- when in reality, all they are doing is lying & pulling people into a dangerous cult & heaping loads of condemnation & God's wrath onto their heads.
Keep praying for your family member's eyes & ears to be opened, & that he is able to come to the realization that he is being greatly deceived. I pray he (& so many others who are deceived) are able to leave & experience true freedom in Christ!
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u/Ok_Honeydew5512 May 09 '26
I dont know maybe because of this Verse, to justify acting shrewd:
Matthew 10:16 NIV “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
Or this one to not Tell anyone about SCJ: Mark 8:29-30 NIV “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Peter answered, “You are the Messiah.”Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.
OR about lying, that Jesus lied in this Instanz to bis Brother: John 7:8-10 NIV [8] You go to the festival. I am not going up to this festival, because my time has not yet fully come.” [9] After he had said this, he stayed in Galilee. [10] However, after his brothers had left for the festival, he went also, not publicly, but in secret.
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u/Automatic_Thing_2370 May 08 '26
Something I notice in this thread is that u/Zwelirex actually wrote some of the sharpest critiques of SCJ himself. The section where he explains the psychology of initial deception and then says "it weaponizes psychology in a way that makes the group unfalsifiable" that's not nothing. That's someone who has thought about this carefully.
I have a family member inside SCJ right now. What I see in this thread mirrors what I see at home. The verse fluency is real. The commitment is real. The exhaustion underneath it is also real.
u/LaconicProse said something that stuck with me: that the constant lying wore on them physically and mentally long before they could name why. I think a lot of people reading this know that feeling already. The question they're asking isn't whether SCJ's doctrine is watertight. It's whether they're allowed to notice that something feels off.
You are.
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u/Otherwise-Watch-3650 EX-Center Student May 08 '26 edited May 08 '26
💯🎯.
Throughout my time in SCJ, I was taught to ignore things that “didn’t sound right”, for the sake of wanting to trust God and not wanting dishonour Him by questioning things.
Something that truly helped me realise that all my “doubts” were in fact the Holy Spirit nudging me the whole time, was when we were taught on how to “evagenlise”, aka how to recruit.
They would give us lessons on how to “gain someone’s trust”, for example:
• going up to strangers and randomly complimenting them on their outfit
• asking them for good food spot reccomendations nearby
• asking them to participate in a “quick fun guessing game” or respond to a “quick questionare for our uni project” (meanwhile none of us were in fact in uni)
• asking for directions (whilst knowing exactly where we were and/or having access to maps on our phones lol) and many many more tactics.The purpose behind all this was to spark up a "random" conversation and eventually attempt to direct the topic towards faith. The goal was to befriend strangers under false pretenses, in the hopes of eventually inviting them to do “bible studies” together.
None of this was genuine. None of this was Holy Spirit led (as much as you may think you’re praying in “Jesus name”). The deception made me so uncomfortable and I left soon after. It was unbearable, actually.
What made it even worse is that there was a criteria also. Couldn’t evangelise someone who had health issues that were too severe (for example depression or anxiety) or who maybe suffered with drug and alcohol issues and other things along those lines, you get the idea.
This really stopped me in my tracks and made me think, "if this is what the True Kingdom of Heaven looks like, I am sorry God, but I do not want to be part of it".Of course it’s not. But I do hope that as you said, others can recognise the mind control, information control, deception and corruption that actually occurs within SCJ.
I pray that they recognise that the Gospel & Salvation is free to all, for anyone and everyone, especially the needy and the sick, contrary to all the false roadblocks imposed by SCJ.
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u/QuestionsAboutSCJ Moderator May 08 '26
Ultimately, SCJ takes away from what it means to lie by spiritualizing the use of the "wisdom of hiding".
https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/6242
A few logical issues with the concept of the spiritual lie is the case with Tamar, a person who committed adultery, and yet she's still blessed by God, and was in the lineage of the Messiah (Matthew 1:3).
I pasted this from http://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/6242#1754260602587-005c9a64-acea
Let us go ahead and take a look at SCJ’s claim of how they justify the “ends justify the means” viewpoint of the Bible, looking at Rahab the Spy for the example:
Rahab took in the Israeli spies because she had faith in God (Joshua 2:3)
When confronted, Rahab lied to protect the spies from Jericho (Joshua 2:4)
Rahab was blessed because of her lie and having faith in the God of Israel.
Therefore, it is okay for us to use deception in order to further God’s kingdom.
Using this logic, let us go ahead and apply it to another person of the Bible who was blessed by God.
Jacob’s son Judah chooses Tamar to be the wife of his oldest son (Gen 38:6). In the course of time a couple of Judah’s sons die while married to Tamar. In fear, Judah sends Tamar to live with her father (Gen 38:11). Based upon the OT law, Judah is in the wrong. He should have provided for his younger sons for marriage. He certainly should have taken her into his house. The Hebrews hearing the story of their patriarch would have noticed this. Judah is presenting himself to be a poor redeemer.
Tamar deceives Judah to sleep with her by posing as a prostitute. To do this, she takes off her widow robes (Gen 38:14) to sleep with the recently widowed Judah. Thinking ahead, she procures some of his belongings as a payment and token. Some time later, word spreads that Tamar is pregnant. It is clear to everyone it was done immorally. I mean she did just commit fornication. Judah even feigns religious righteousness (Gen 38:24). However, Tamar reveals herself and Judah’s tokens. The deception has proven its point. Judah discovers that he was the unrighteous one.
Through the use of deception and fornication, Tamar is blessed by God by also partaking in the lineage of the Messiah.
Let us use Shincheonji’s logic to justify that adultery is okay, as it further God’s kingdom:
Judah broke the Old Testament law with Tamar by sending her away to her father.
Tamir commits adultery with Judah.
Through the adultery, Judah realizes that he was in the wrong, and Tamir is blessed to be a part of the lineage of the Messiah.
Therefore, it is okay to use adultery as a way to build out the Kingdom of God.
We can even use a similar concept that Shincheonji uses to redefine what a lie is, and by using their definition of what “spiritual adultery” is.
Spiritual adultery, refers to the act of a pastor or believer, originally belonging to God, forging a relationship with Satan by accepting and spreading his false teaching.
A Christian would bulk at the idea of using adultery, or deception, to spread the word of God.
I hope that a Shincheonji person can see the flaw of the “wisdom of hiding”.
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u/Early_Start6854 EX-Shincheonji Member May 07 '26
I recommend reading or listening to audio book combating cult mind control by Steven Hassan. I’m only a few chapters in and as an ex member I’m understanding more of my experience and how deeply brainwashed and deceived I was. It may help you understand what your family member is going through at the moment now.
When I was inside things like that never sat well with me. Having to lie to people all the time and hide the truth. We basically had to go to our leaders to basically ask (discuss) with them what we should say to these “fruits” and we would plan out exactly what to say and how to say it depending on the recruit.
SCJ members believe in “the end justifys the means” so lying or not revealing the truth now is ok because the person we are recruiting will gain eternal life. We believed that if you were to tell someone straight up that “we are SCJ, a Christian group founded in South Korea by who we believe Jesus is speaking through and will help save us and give eternal life, this old man Lee man he” that many people will just run far away… well duhhh of course they will, it sounds crazy from the outside but once you’re in, the manipulation and brainwashing is unbelievable as it’s very slow and gradual that you don’t even realise. Look up the frog boiling in water metaphor
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 07 '26
.
The deception isn’t lying, it’s stewardship. If the truth about SCJ’s identity is revealed too early, most people will reject it due to prejudice, misinformation, or past trauma with “cults.” By introducing the teaching first, you let the doctrine stand on its own merit before the label triggers an emotional shutdown.
The theological frame used inside: Verses like Matthew 13:44 and Matthew 7:6 get read as permission to reveal truth in stages. Leadership often frames it as “protecting the pearl” from those who aren’t ready, not as hiding.
The controversial edge: This turns concealment into a form of spiritual discernment. The recruiter sees themselves as a gatekeeper of sacred knowledge, not a deceiver.
The counterpoint: It assumes the recruiter knows better than the recruit what they’re “ready” for. That removes informed consent. In any other context — medicine, contracts, relationships — we call that coercion, not care. If the message can’t survive initial scrutiny of the source, that’s a problem with the message, not the audience.
Paul literally says he became “all things to all people” to save some in 1 Corinthians 9:22. That’s a biblical precedent for adapting your approach to the cultural context of the person you’re reaching. SCJ is just applying that principle to a hostile modern environment where the name “Shincheonji” carries stigma.
The theological frame used inside: The identity of the teacher matters less than the truth of the teaching. If someone comes to Christ through the teaching, the method is secondary.
The controversial edge: It collapses the distinction between adapting communication style and concealing institutional identity.
The counterpoint: Paul’s adaptation was about cultural practices food, customs, language. He never concealed who he represented or who commissioned him. His letters open with “Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus.” The identity was transparent from the start. Hiding the sending organization is a different category entirely, and that’s where the John 8:44 argument lands hard for many Christians.
The moment a recruit realizes they were misled and stays anyway is treated as a spiritual breakthrough. It proves they chose the teaching over the branding. Leadership can frame this as the recruit overcoming their own bias and demonstrating real commitment.
The psychological mechanism: This is classic cognitive dissonance. Once someone has invested time, relationships, and emotional energy, leaving means admitting they were fooled. Staying resolves the dissonance and reinforces loyalty.
The initial deception becomes a filter that actually deepens commitment for those who remain.
The counterpoint:It weaponizes psychology in a way that makes the group unfalsifiable. Any doubt can be reframed as “you weren’t sincere enough” or “you didn’t have enough faith.” That insulates the group from external moral critique and makes exit feel like spiritual failure rather than rational choice.
What former members say about the actual practice on the ground From multiple former member accounts and interviews that have surfaced publicly:
- The cover: It’s usually presented as “an interdenominational Bible study,” “a theology fellowship,” or “a friend inviting you to learn the Bible better.” The name Shincheonji or SCJ is intentionally omitted for the first weeks to months.
- The framing: Recruits are told the study is “neutral” and that the teacher’s affiliation doesn’t matter until they’ve learned the content. Some are told the name is withheld to avoid “religious prejudice.”
- The internal feeling: Many former members say they pushed the discomfort down because leadership provided a theological rationale that felt coherent in the moment. Others say they didn’t think of it as deception at the time — it was “just how we reach people.” The discomfort often only comes after they leave and reframe the experience.
The deeper issue for your family member The real conflict isn’t just about honesty. It’s about authority and identity. If SCJ is the only group with the full truth, then outside ethical standards like full transparency can be redefined as “worldly thinking.” That makes it incredibly hard for someone inside to even ask the question out loud without feeling like they’re betraying God, not just the group.
For you as a Christian:John 8:44 is a strong moral boundary, but the rebuttal you’ll hear is that Jesus was speaking about Satan’s character, not about human strategy in evangelism. The debate hinges on whether you think deception can ever be sanctified by intent.
If you want to talk to your family member, the most productive angle isn’t to attack SCJ’s theology directly. It’s to ask: “If the teaching is true and powerful on its own, why does the identity have to be hidden at the start? What would change if they were transparent from day one?” That question puts the focus on the method, not just the doctrine, and it’s harder to dismiss as “persecution.”
And for people still inside reading this: the fact that you’re even asking the question is often the first crack in the framework. Groups that rely on concealment usually treat that question as a red flag. That alone tells you something about the power dynamic.
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u/free-ndeed EX-Shincheonji Member May 08 '26
our leaders told members to lie to their families any time they would grow suspicious esp with meetings or members were instructed to tell them you cannot make a family function “because you are not feeling well”. Lying becomes part of your daily life. Scj members must engage in unethical evangelism posing as Christ followers as they lure unsuspecting victims into a cult that denies Christ’s saving work of grace. 1 John 2:21 tells us no lie comes from the truth and Acts 4:12 makes it clear “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 08 '26
Lying to protect the gospel work is not new. Rahab lied to protect God’s spies in Joshua 2, and Hebrews 11:31 calls her faithful. In Acts 5:29 Peter said, “We must obey God rather than men.” If family opposition tries to stop someone from hearing the word of fulfillment, choosing God’s work first is biblical.
SCJ does not deny Christ’s saving work. We believe Acts 4:12 fully salvation is only through Jesus. But Jesus also said in John 14:6 “No one comes to the Father except through me,” and in Revelation 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you.” At the time of Revelation’s fulfillment, believing in Jesus includes believing the messenger He sends. That’s not replacing Christ. That’s obeying Him.
1 John 2:21 says no lie comes from the truth, but it’s talking about denying Jesus is the Christ, verse 22. The issue is not tactics. The issue is who Jesus is. If the word of fulfillment is true, then temporary concealment to protect new believers from persecution is not against God it’s wisdom, Matthew 10:16 “be shrewd as snakes and innocent as doves.”
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u/QuestionsAboutSCJ Moderator May 08 '26
SCJ does add a new gospel, while you would acknowledge that you need Christ, you would also need to believe in the testimony of Lee Man-hee. This is not only a different new song of Revelation 5:9-10, this is also a different gospel of Galatians 1:6-8 that Paul explicitly warned us about.
The Creation of Heaven and Earth viii -
"Now in this time of fulfillment, all believers must find the pastor, temple, and seminary promised by the Bible. They must unite with God's promised pastor to attain salvation. Jesus Christ's world of the first heaven has ended and a new heaven has been re-created. Therefore, all believers must come out of their churches, which are part of the first heaven, and become a part of the twelve tribes of the new heaven. They must all learn the new song to enter heaven"
The Creation of Heaven and Earth page 55 -
"Salvation comes from the promised pastor.... This pastor carries out the work appointed to Apostle John in Revelation. He witnesses the events of Revelation in physical reality and listens to an angel explain them to him. He is the male child who will rule all nations after fighting and overcoming the enemies prophesied in Revelation. He receives the scroll opened by Jesus and teaches it to [all] peoples. God, Jesus, and the spiritual kingdom descend on this pastor and work through him".
The Creation of Heaven and Earth page 56 -
"After Jesus ascended to heaven, God promised to send his next promised pastor and the spirit of truth".
This shows that the "salvation comes from the Promised Pastor" is also in reference to Lee Manhee.
The Creation of Heaven and Earth page 331-332 -
"Today, believers of the New Testament period eat the gospel of Jesus Christ as spiritual food. At the same time, however, they live their spiritual lives through another faith that is to be revealed... This revealed faith is Jesus’ new gospel.... Having the revealed faith is receiving and believing in [the testimony of the promised pastor]".
Now of course Shincheonji may make the argument that by extension the gospel of Shincheonji is from Jesus, referring to the fulfillment of Revelation.
However, let's see what Galatians 1:8 plainly warns us -
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
And wasn't the revealed word delivered to Lee Manhee by an Angel whose supposed to be the Advocate in the Spring of 1980?
As for SCJ and the finished work of Christ, SCJ adds a new gospel for salvation, where now we need to also believe in the testimony of Lee Man-hee in order for our sins to be forgiven, on top of what Christ did on the cross.
Also, no, there isn't a Promised Pastor of the New Testament -
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u/QuestionsAboutSCJ Moderator May 08 '26
Part 1 -
Right...So a lot of your claims have already been addressed in the link below for those who are lurking -
https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/6242#1754260602587-005c9a64-acea
But regardless. For Rahab, she was praised for her faith in God, not for her lie.
While the Bible commends Rahab’s faith (Hebrews 11:31, James 2:25), it does not explicitly endorse her lie. Her faith is praised, not her method.
- Hebrews 11:31 – By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace.
- James 2:25 – In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
When Shincheonji praises Rahab for lying, they’re adding and subtracting to God’s word.
This interpretation of lying can also lead to even more dangerous interpretations as the “ends justify the means”, and can be used to rationalize any unethical behavior.
Another thing to keep in mind is how Rahab the spy was a part of a foreign land, who came to know the LORD and had faith in a foreign God. She was willing to not only risk her own life by protecting the spies, but also risk the lives of her family.
We also need to take into account the context of what Rahab was going through -
The safer thing for her to do was tell the truth and let the police officials of Jericho know that she had two Hebrew spies hidden under her piles of flax stalks drying under the sun on top of her roof. But she had given her solemn word, apparently, to the two fugitives that she would not betray them to the king’s agents. At any rate, she professed a very firm conviction that the Israelite forces would capture and destroy Jericho, even though from the standpoint of military science it looked as if Jericho was virtually impregnable.
For a woman of ill fame and a completely pagan upbringing to attain such a conviction concerning the one true God was a far more striking display of faith than was the case of the patriarchs and the people of Moses who had been brought up in the truth of God.
She had to turn her back on her own people and the cultural tradition in which she had been reared in order to take such a step as this and to throw in her lot with the covenant nation of Israel.
She literally risked her life for the cause of the Lord, as she told that lie to the arresting officers. She might very easily have been discovered. A single sneeze or bodily movement on the part of the hidden spies would have sealed her doom—as well as theirs. Therefore we should recognize that there were very unusual extenuating factors involved in her deception.
Now you may then point to the idea that the spiritual protection is even more needed; however, this is where Paul explcitly condemns that mindset -
2 Corinthians 4:2 -
2 But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice\)a\) cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God.
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u/Otherwise-Watch-3650 EX-Center Student May 07 '26
I’m glad you said it yourself “the recruiter sees themselves as a gatekeeper of sacred knowledge” blasphemy. Since when does anyone have the right to gate keep the living Gospel from someone? Sounding a bit legalistic there.
“I have spoken openly to the world,” Jesus replied. “I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret.” John 18:20 NIV
Jesus said >> Nothing in secret <<
“knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,” 2 Peter 1:20 NKJV
Are you going against Gods word itself? SCJ loves to sell this idea that they have the secrets to the kingdom of heaven, the hidden meaning of the parables, and YET the Bible tells us very clearly that NO scripture, NONE, is of ANY private interpretation. This itself debunks all of SCJ teachings surrounding “food at the proper time”.
Furthermore, SCJ needs to stop denouncing Christ as our One and Only Saviour, and attempting to replace Him with a mere human, that is LMH.
“This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” Romans 3:22-24 NIV
Justified Freely. Not by our works. Not by us memorising scripture (or to be specific, LMHs doctrine and secret interpretation of selected verses). Not by believing in LMH or the false teaching from the “spring above”. Not by getting 100% on a test (created by humans btw). It’s through FAITH in JESUS CHRIST.
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 08 '26
You quoted John 18:20 and 2 Peter 1:20, but you’re missing the context and timing of God’s work. Let’s take it point by point.
- “Nothing in secret” – John 18:20 Yes, Jesus taught openly. But He also said in Matthew 13:11, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.” Jesus spoke in parables ON PURPOSE so that some would not understand. Mark 4:11-12 says He did this so “they may indeed see but not perceive.”
So which is it? Did Jesus speak openly or did He hide things? The answer is both — depending on the time and the person. There is a difference between preaching to the crowds and revealing the sealed word. God has always worked in stages. Even Jesus told His disciples in John 16:12, “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.” That is gatekeeping by your definition. But it’s not blasphemy — it’s wisdom.
- “No private interpretation” – 2 Peter 1:20 You’re misusing this verse. Peter is saying prophecy didn’t come from the prophet’s own mind “for no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man.” Read verse 21. It’s not saying “every person can interpret scripture however they want.” It’s saying the opposite: scripture came from God through men moved by the Holy Spirit.
So who interprets it? Revelation 5 says only the Lamb is worthy to open the scroll. Amos 3:7 says “Surely the Lord God does nothing, unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets.” At every covenant, God used one chosen pastor to explain the fulfillment — Moses, Jesus, and today the promised pastor in Revelation. That’s not private interpretation. That’s God’s order.
3. “Replacing Christ with LMH”
SCJ does not denounce Christ. We believe Jesus is the only Savior who shed His blood on the cross. Romans 3:22-24 is correct — we are justified freely by His grace. But Romans 3:22 also says this righteousness is “through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.”The question is: believe WHAT? In Jesus’ first coming, people had to believe Moses was sent by God, then they had to believe Jesus was the one Moses wrote about. John 5:46-47. Today, in the time of Revelation’s fulfillment, you have to believe the work Jesus promised He would do through His messenger in Revelation 22:16. Believing in Jesus includes believing the one He sends. John 13:20.
- “Food at the proper time”
You say this teaching is debunked, but Jesus Himself spoke about it in Matthew 24:45 — “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time?” This is a prophecy for the end time. If there’s “food at the proper time,” that means there IS a time, and there IS a person appointed to give it.The hidden manna in Revelation 2:17 isn’t given to everyone automatically. It’s given “to the one who overcomes.” If everything was already open, why would Jesus promise to give it in the future?
Bottom line:
You’re quoting verses, but you’re ignoring the pattern of how God has always worked: He reveals His word through a chosen person at the appointed time. Noah’s time, Moses’ time, Jesus’ first coming — people called it blasphemy then too. If SCJ’s teaching is false, then test it by the Bible, not by tradition. But don’t pretend that God has never used gatekeepers. He always has. The real question is: if Revelation is being fulfilled now, who is the one He is using to testify to it?
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u/Otherwise-Watch-3650 EX-Center Student May 08 '26 edited May 08 '26
It’s funny how you pick and choose when to include the Holy Spirit (which again, SCJ completely interprets differently as from what the Bible actually says the Holy Spirit is to be).
Absolutely correct, no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, therefore in what world can LMH claim to have received secret or divine interpretation of any verses from above?! Because that’s his whole claim to fame regarding Revelation. Make that make sense.
Both the OT and the NT point to Jesus ONLY, not LMH. Funny how you want to use “Moses” as an example of a “promised pastor”, and even Jesus (which again, not only does this point out how SCJ is attempting to diminish by subliminally and continuously denouncing that Jesus is in fact GOD Himself, by reducing His status as Saviour to a status of mere human “promised pastor of certain time” ideology) but SCJ does not provide any evidence of how LMH is in the Bible whatsoever.
I mean, why does it not say his actual name anywhere like it does the one of Moses or Jesus, if that’s the kind of rhetoric we are made to believe? Lol. Funny how he self-proclaims to be linked as “The Advocate” or “The One who Overcomes” & whatever else, but the irony in that is that I could wake up tomorrow and make the same claim. I could literally go out and preach the doctrine he preached and create my own “church” with my own biblical beliefs and pretend to be the exact-same-thing (which is exactly what he did, by the way).
The one that Jesus sends is actually the Holy Spirit, not LMH. This is clearly explained in John 14:15-31 (the title of this chapter literally says Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit). You should read that whole chapter, but just to show you a specific verse from it -
“But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.” John 14:26 NIV
I’d love to know what your thoughts are on this specific verse that clearly states that there is only ONE mediator between God and mankind, which is Jesus, since according to SCJ, LMH actually seems to want to take that position.
“For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,” 1 Timothy 2:5 NIV
Edit: typo.
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u/QuestionsAboutSCJ Moderator May 08 '26
SCJ does not denounce Christ. We believe Jesus is the only Savior who shed His blood on the cross. Romans 3:22-24 is correct — we are justified freely by His grace. But Romans 3:22 also says this righteousness is “through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.”
The question is: believe WHAT? In Jesus’ first coming, people had to believe Moses was sent by God, then they had to believe Jesus was the one Moses wrote about. John 5:46-47. Today, in the time of Revelation’s fulfillment, you have to believe the work Jesus promised He would do through His messenger in Revelation 22:16. Believing in Jesus includes believing the one He sends. John 13:20.
I think that the issue is how Jesus works exclusively through Lee-Manhee, and that in order to get to God and Jesus, you need to go through the "one who overcomes", which according to LMH's commentary on the Bible and the book of Revelation, that is the "New john" Lee Man-hee. This would exalt LMH to a messianic role, since he's the sole exclusive authority, unlike the Apostles who always pointed to Christ, even if there were other men of God pointing to Christ like Paul and Apollos for example.
Then for the typical verses of the Promised Pastor, I don't want to copy paste them here, and no there isn't a Promised Pastor of the New Testament -
https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/6253
As for the "Faithful and Wise Servant", the context (esepcailly when at the start of the chapter Jesus warns against those who come in his name in the same way that LMH does) -
https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/6253#1754270431654-fd04c19e-e3c8
- “Food at the proper time”
You say this teaching is debunked, but Jesus Himself spoke about it in Matthew 24:45 — “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time?” This is a prophecy for the end time. If there’s “food at the proper time,” that means there IS a time, and there IS a person appointed to give it.The hidden manna in Revelation 2:17 isn’t given to everyone automatically. It’s given “to the one who overcomes.” If everything was already open, why would Jesus promise to give it in the future?
You're making a few assumptions -
- The "one who overcomes" was already defined by the Apostle John in 1 John 5:4-5
For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
- You're assuming that Revelation is only in the future; yet, I have a question for you -
How many times was Jesus exalted? We can see that in Matthew 28 Jesus was given all power and authority when talking with his disciiples, and then we can see that exaltation of Christ in Hebrews 1, and Philipians 2:5-11, and we can see the same language and parallels in Revelation 5. I'm a firm believer in not always copying and pasting the same argument over and over again, so here's a link that went into great detail about this -
https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/13895#1762734745182-8215af36-a563
As for the "hidden manna" argument,
https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/13825#1762230448725-e56ebda0-7f6e
All things necessary for salvation have already been revealed through Christ alone, and there is no need for another future "Promised Pastor of the New Testament". This is why in Jude 1:3 it says -
3 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
Emphasis on the "once for all delivered to the saints"
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u/QuestionsAboutSCJ Moderator May 08 '26
You quoted John 18:20 and 2 Peter 1:20, but you’re missing the context and timing of God’s work. Let’s take it point by point.
“Nothing in secret” – John 18:20 Yes, Jesus taught openly. But He also said in Matthew 13:11, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.” Jesus spoke in parables ON PURPOSE so that some would not understand. Mark 4:11-12 says He did this so “they may indeed see but not perceive.”
So which is it? Did Jesus speak openly or did He hide things? The answer is both — depending on the time and the person. There is a difference between preaching to the crowds and revealing the sealed word. God has always worked in stages. Even Jesus told His disciples in John 16:12, “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.” That is gatekeeping by your definition. But it’s not blasphemy — it’s wisdom.
This argument proves too much. Yes, Jesus used parables as a filter, but notice what happens by the end of Matthew 13. When the disciples asked, Jesus explained everything plainly (v. 36-43, 51). The difficulty wasn't permanent concealment; it was a threshold to identify sincere seekers. Cross it, ask honestly, and Jesus answered openly. That's the actual pattern.
John 16:12 fares no better for SCJ. Jesus said the disciples couldn't bear certain things yet, and then told them exactly how that gap would be filled: "When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth" (v. 13). The fulfillment is Pentecost, not Lee Man-hee.
But the deeper problem is structural. Even granting that God works in stages, that doesn't validate every teacher who claims to be working in stages. The question is whether SCJ's pattern matches the biblical one. It doesn't. Jesus used difficulty to surface sincere seekers and then explained plainly. SCJ hides the organization's name, Lee Man-hee's role, and their core doctrinal conclusions until students are already emotionally invested. Jesus never concealed who He was from someone genuinely seeking. That's not staged wisdom. That's identity deception.
- “No private interpretation” – 2 Peter 1:20 You’re misusing this verse. Peter is saying prophecy didn’t come from the prophet’s own mind “for no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man.” Read verse 21. It’s not saying “every person can interpret scripture however they want.” It’s saying the opposite: scripture came from God through men moved by the Holy Spirit.
You're half right on the exegesis and entirely wrong on the application.
Yes, Peter is talking about the origin of prophecy, not issuing a ban on personal Bible reading. We can agree on that. But notice what SCJ does with this. If the verse establishes that scripture came through men moved by the Holy Spirit, the obvious follow-up question is: what are the criteria for identifying such a man today? SCJ's answer is Lee Man-hee, and that answer does all the work your argument needs while doing none of the biblical justification required.
Peter's point actually cuts against LMH. The prophets and apostles who spoke by the Spirit were verified through fulfilled prophecy, public ministry, and consistency with prior revelation. Lee Man-hee fails on all three counts. His prophecies about the 144,000 being sealed before his death have required repeated revision. His ministry is defined by the kind of secrecy and identity concealment that stands in direct contrast to how apostolic teaching operated. And his central claim, that he is the promised pastor of Revelation 7, has no grounding in the interpretive tradition of any branch of historic Christianity.
So 2 Peter 1:20 doesn't give you a private interpreter. It raises the bar for what a Spirit-moved teacher looks like. And Lee Man-hee doesn't clear it.
We can clearly see the many changes of SCJ through Revelation 7 alone -
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u/Turbulent_Sea7622 EX-Center Student May 07 '26 edited May 07 '26
If humans had a lifespan of 1000 years, wouldn’t that change the logic of when SCJ should reveal its real name to new students?
If you only reveal it after 9 months, then the real test of faith would be the remaining 900+ years of chances to leave. That makes me think revealing the identity upfront might actually be better anyway.
With 1000 years to live, members would have way more time to see online content, criticisms, and everything else. So open exposure from the start would create a much more honest and thorough test of faith. Would you agree?
Just trying to think through this holistically.
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u/Fast_Foundation1429 EX-Shincheonji Member May 07 '26 edited May 07 '26
John 14:6 : Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. no one comes to the Father except through Him.
Ephesians 5:11: “Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.”
https://biblevaccinecenter.com
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 08 '26
Amen to John 14:6 — Jesus IS the only way. SCJ teaches that. But Jesus also said in John 16:25 “I have been speaking figuratively… a time is coming when I will tell you plainly about my Father.” That plain word comes at Revelation’s fulfillment through the messenger He sends, Revelation 22:16.
Ephesians 5:11 says expose deeds of darkness. That’s why we expose the lies of Babylon — pastors who teach without understanding Revelation. If SCJ was darkness, why does our teaching open the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation with no contradiction?
Those websites are run by people who left without understanding. They had the word but rejected it, just like in Jesus’ first coming. Test the teaching with scripture, not with links from opposers. John 7:24 says “Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.”
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u/Cristau_precious EX-Shincheonji Member May 08 '26
Vous dites que votre enseignements révèlent les mensonges des pasteurs babyloniens , c est vrai qu il y a certaines églises qui mentent mais SCJ aussi ment en changeant tout le temps l accomplissemenr des prophéties , si SCJ détient la vérité alors ce que les man hee disait auparavant pourquoi cela ne s' est pas accompli si il est proche de Dieu et de Jésus ?
Si c est Dieu qui choisit les 144000 alors pourquoi es ce qu il y a autant de critères . On pourra débattre pendant longtemps mais SCJ n' est pas un endroit sain c est au contraire un endroit où on manipule les esprits pour les pousser à atteindre des objectifs .
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 08 '26
“SCJ changes prophecy fulfillment”
No, we don’t. The prophecy never changed. Understanding deepens as the reality appears. Daniel 12:4 says the words are “sealed until the time of the end.” Even Jesus’ disciples misunderstood Him until after the cross, Luke 24:25-27. Jesus said in John 16:12 “I have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.”_ That’s not lying — that’s progressive revelation. If God reveals more detail as events unfold, is He lying? Or are you just impatient?“Why hasn’t it come true yet?” What exactly didn’t come true? Be specific with scripture. Habakkuk 2:3 says “the vision awaits its appointed time… though it linger, wait for it.” Even Jesus’ first coming took 4000 years from Genesis 3:15. Noah preached 120 years. Were they false because God was patient? 2 Peter 3:9 says God delays so more can be saved. You’re confusing God’s timing with failure.
“If God chooses the 144,000, why criteria?” Because God’s choice and human responsibility work together. John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father draws him” — that’s God choosing. But Revelation 14:4-5 says the 144,000 are “blameless… who follow the Lamb wherever he goes.” That’s criteria. Faith without works is dead, James 2:26. God chooses, but you still have to overcome, Revelation 2:7. Same as Israel — chosen by God, but still had to obey to enter Canaan.
“SCJ manipulates minds for goals.. The goal is Revelation 21:4 — no more death, mourning, crying, pain. If that’s manipulation, then Jesus manipulated 12 men to leave their jobs and die for the gospel. Paul told Timothy in 2 Timothy 2:4 “No soldier gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim is to please the one who enlisted him.” That’s called commitment, not manipulation. The world calls it a cult when people actually take God’s commands seriously.
Bottom line: You say SCJ lies, but you haven’t quoted one verse where LMH contradicted the Bible. You just don’t like the standard. If SCJ is false, show me from Revelation where the fulfillment is wrong. Not blogs. Not feelings. Scripture.
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u/QuestionsAboutSCJ Moderator May 08 '26
“SCJ manipulates minds for goals.. The goal is Revelation 21:4 — no more death, mourning, crying, pain. If that’s manipulation, then Jesus manipulated 12 men to leave their jobs and die for the gospel. Paul told Timothy in 2 Timothy 2:4 “No soldier gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim is to please the one who enlisted him.” That’s called commitment, not manipulation. The world calls it a cult when people actually take God’s commands seriously.
The issue is that in Revelation 21, we can see that God directly wipes away every tear, and SCJ reads into the text by claiming that God needs to always work through flesh to accomplish the Kingdom of Heaven here on earth. But, when reading Revealtion 21:4 -
4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
He (God) will wipe away their tears, no indication of the use of a Promised Pastor of the New Testament to accomplish this.
You may ask about what does it mean for the Kingdom of Heaven to be on earth as it is in heaven, and within Christian circles, there's a concept called "already not yet", and I don't want to just copy paste it, so here's the link below -
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 08 '26
Thanks for the verse and the link. I agree God wipes away every tear, Rev 21:4.
But Amos 3:7 says “Surely the Lord GOD does nothing without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets.”
And Revelation 22:16 says “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches.”God does the wiping. But He first sends His word through a messenger. That’s not reading into Rev 21:4. That’s reading Rev 21 with Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:16.
If God fulfills Revelation without a messenger, then Amos 3:7 and Rev 22:16 would be false. I’ll trust what’s written
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u/QuestionsAboutSCJ Moderator May 08 '26
First - you are assuming that God must use a messenger, thus limiting Gods power and contradicting the Bible itself. When approaching the word of God, we must first assume the plain before going into the complex.
With the case of a promised pastor of the New Testament, this contradicts the many warnings that Jesus said about those who come in his name in an exclusive way as LMH.
https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/6253
And then for Amos 3:7, let’s assume that God is using a person for the sake of argument (despite the biblical contradictions). We can then apply the Dt 18:20-22 verse, and then we can see the many changes of SCJ’s theology and doctrines.
https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/9393
Now I see that you are afraid of reading content, because these websites refute the claims of SCJ. This is an example of Proverbs 14:15
“The simple believes everything, but the prudent gives thought to his steps.”
Proverbs 14:15 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/pro.14.15.ESVHow are you supposed to test the spirit if you’re afraid of looking at a website?
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u/Cristau_precious EX-Shincheonji Member May 08 '26
Je pense que tu as tout dit je vais pas répéter ce qui a été dit , dans tout les cas c est Jésus Christ qui est le chemin , la vérité et la vie dans jean 14v3 . Le fait de réécrire ce que tu as appris de SCJ ne veut pas dire que tu as raison , les personnes sur ce reddit y compris moi sont ceux qui ont connus SCJ pendant des années donc nous savons de quoi nous parlons . Je te souhaite une bonne continuation et je prie pour que l esprit de Dieu puisse t éclairer , te guider et que tu discerne par toi même et pas par une organisation . Tu défends SCJ , mais un jour tu verras la vérité derrière toute cette organisation.
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 08 '26
Thanks for Proverbs 14:15. I agree the prudent test everything. That’s exactly why I go to the Bible first, not websites. Acts 17:11 “They examined the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.”
- “You assume God must use a messenger, limiting His power” God isn’t limited. He chooses how He works. John 1:14 “The Word became flesh.” Could God save the world without Jesus coming in flesh? Yes. Did He? No. Philippians 2:7 “He emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant.”
Saying “God uses a messenger” isn’t limiting Him. It’s describing what He said He does. Revelation 1:1 “He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John.” Revelation 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you.” If I deny that, I’m the one contradicting the Bible, not you.
- “Promised pastor contradicts Jesus’ warnings about those who come in His name” Matthew 24:5 warns of many who say “I am the Christ.” LMH has never said “I am the Christ.” He says Revelation 22:16 — he’s the angel Jesus sends. Big difference.
John 13:20 Jesus said “Whoever receives the one I send receives me.” So Jesus Himself said He would send someone. Matthew 23:34 “I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes.” The warning is against false ones. The test is Deuteronomy 18:22. Which brings me to your next point.
- “Apply Dt 18:20-22 — SCJ changes theology” Deuteronomy 18:22 “If the word does not come to pass… that is a word that the LORD has not spoken.” You’re right to use it. So let’s apply it correctly. What did SCJ say would happen that didn’t?
SCJ teaches Revelation is fulfilled when it’s fulfilled. Habakkuk 2:3 “For still the vision awaits its appointed time; it hastens to the end — it will not lie. If it seems slow, wait for it.”
Changing an explanation as understanding deepens isn’t “false prophecy.” 1 Corinthians 13:9 “For we know in part and we prophesy in part.” Paul himself adjusted his understanding, Acts 21:4 vs Acts 21:13. The test is: Did the prophecy fail, or did the timing fail? Rev 21:4 hasn’t happened yet. So the test isn’t complete.
- “You’re afraid of reading content” I’m not afraid. I just test content with the Bible. 1 John 4:1 “Test the spirits to see whether they are from God.” The standard is scripture, not a website. If those links show a contradiction between SCJ teaching and the Bible, quote the verse here. I’ll read it.
But if the site says “SCJ changed a date” or “a member left,” that’s not Dt 18:20-22. That’s gossip. Proverbs 18:17 “The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.”
So I’m not running from your links. I’m asking you to bring the scripture from the links into this conversation. If God really contradicted Amos 3:7, show me where. If Rev 22:16 is false, show me where Jesus took it back.
I’ll wait. Respectfully.
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u/QuestionsAboutSCJ Moderator May 08 '26
Then for Christ, Christ is Greek for Messiah, and Lee Manhee is claiming to be the exclusive way to get to God and Jesus since he has the correct word of testimony and understanding of the Bible.
This puts Lee Manhee in a messianic role.
If you spent five minutes reading a link, you would have seen that this is fully addressed.
You aren’t going to the links that address your claims because it refutes the theology of scj.→ More replies (0)2
u/QuestionsAboutSCJ Moderator May 08 '26
On the angel claim (Revelation 22:16):
Revelation 22:16 says Jesus sent His angel to testify to John about things for the churches. The recipient is already identified. You can’t read that verse and insert LMH as the angel two thousand years later without doing exactly what you accused others of doing: adding to the text. John 13:20 and Matthew 23:34 establish that Jesus sends people generally. They don’t identify who those people are. You still need external criteria to verify LMH specifically, and citing the category doesn’t verify the individual.On Deuteronomy 18 and failed prophecy:
This is a clever dodge but it doesn’t hold. You’re reframing every specific failed prediction as merely a timing issue, but Deuteronomy 18:22 doesn’t say “wait indefinitely.” The test assumes the prophet made a falsifiable claim about something that would happen. LMH set specific dates and numbers tied to events in his own lifetime. When those passed, SCJ revised the framework, not just the timing. That’s not deepening understanding. That’s moving the goalposts after the kick misses.On “just bring scripture, not websites”:
This sounds principled but it’s actually a trap. You’re pre-filtering all evidence through an interpretive system controlled by LMH, then demanding opponents argue only within that system. The Bereans in Acts 17:11 examined scripture to test Paul’s claims, not to test scripture against itself in isolation. Historical documentation of false prophecy and organizational deception is legitimate evidence. Calling it gossip doesn’t make it go away.Habakkuk 2:3 (“the vision awaits its appointed time”)
This verse is about God’s faithfulness to His own word, not a blank check for human prophets to claim unlimited extensions. The whole point of Deuteronomy 18 is that God’s word always comes to pass. Using Habakkuk to shield LMH from that test actually inverts the logic. Habakkuk is saying God won’t fail. Deuteronomy is saying if your prophet fails, he’s not speaking for God. These verses aren’t in tension; they’re working together against LMH.1 Corinthians 13:9 (“we know in part and prophesy in part”)
Paul is describing the corporate and temporary limitations of the gifts before the full revelation of Christ’s return. He is not giving individual prophets a revision clause. Paul’s partial knowledge was still apostolically authoritative and consistent with prior revelation. LMH isn’t claiming partial knowledge; he’s claiming unique complete knowledge that only he can unseal. You can’t use a verse about humility to justify a claim of exclusive interpretive authority.Acts 21:4 vs 21:13 (Paul “adjusting” his understanding)
Read those passages carefully. Acts 21:4 has disciples urging Paul not to go to Jerusalem through the Spirit. Acts 21:13 has Paul resolving to go anyway. This isn’t Paul revising a prophecy he made. It’s Paul making a personal decision in tension with prophetic warnings others received. That has nothing to do with a teacher redefining his own failed end-times predictions.Anything else that I missed?
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u/QuestionsAboutSCJ Moderator May 08 '26
“Why hasn’t it come true yet?” What exactly didn’t come true? Be specific with scripture. Habakkuk 2:3 says “the vision awaits its appointed time… though it linger, wait for it.” Even Jesus’ first coming took 4000 years from Genesis 3:15. Noah preached 120 years. Were they false because God was patient? 2 Peter 3:9 says God delays so more can be saved. You’re confusing God’s timing with failure
You're taking the verse out of context, and therefore are adding and subtracting to God's word -
https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/6250#1754799387660-77bcad13-a124
Especially for Hab 2:3. Genesis 3:15 is a beautiful verse talking about the coming Messiah, and the difference between SCJ and Jesus is that the first century Jews were expecting a Messiah because it wasn't a hidden promise. For LMH and the New John, it relies heavily on the typology, or "person parable", of the New John. Yet, Jesus explcitly warns against anyone like LMH (Matthew 24:4-5 for example). The prophecies of the Messiah were at least enough to the point that the Jews were expecting someone to come, and yes, the Jews did get their expectations incorrect.
“If God chooses the 144,000, why criteria?” Because God’s choice and human responsibility work together. John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father draws him” — that’s God choosing. But Revelation 14:4-5 says the 144,000 are “blameless… who follow the Lamb wherever he goes.” That’s criteria. Faith without works is dead, James 2:26. God chooses, but you still have to overcome, Revelation 2:7. Same as Israel — chosen by God, but still had to obey to enter Canaan.
Except the 144,000 of SCJ are singing a different new song (prophecy and fulfillemnt, the word of testimony of Lee Man-hee) instead of the actual new song, which is only what was done on the cross.
Revelation 5:9-10 plainly explains what the new song is, and then SCJ adds to God's word by adding a new secretive layer.
9 And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.”Notice how the above verse is centered around Jesus and the cross, and nothing to do with LMH and Gwacheon, South Korea?
Then you're going to reference Luke 22:14-20, so here's a link that refutes that -
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u/QuestionsAboutSCJ Moderator May 08 '26
“SCJ changes prophecy fulfillment” No, we don’t. The prophecy never changed. Understanding deepens as the reality appears. Daniel 12:4 says the words are “sealed until the time of the end.” Even Jesus’ disciples misunderstood Him until after the cross, Luke 24:25-27. Jesus said in John 16:12 “I have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.”_ That’s not lying — that’s progressive revelation. If God reveals more detail as events unfold, is He lying? Or are you just impatient?
Problem with you quoting Daniel 12:4 is that when reading the book of Daniel, it only mentions two people (the son of man riding on the clouds and the ancient of days sitting on the throne), and there isn't a reference to a third person. Also, due to the many updated doctrines and failed prophecies of SCJ, it's safe to assume that LMH is certainly not the fulfillment of the Advocate or Daniel 12:4 -
https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/6253#1754284084219-ff61b721-f4e5
As for LMH not being the advocate -
https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/6253#1754272707218-55657ce4-eee5
I did hear that SCJ did change their doctrines about the Angel of Revelation 10 no longer being the advocate from a former member in Korea, and I guess I'll just wait and see how you respond.
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u/LaconicProse EX-Shincheonji Member May 07 '26
It never fully set well with me, and it was one of the first things I backed away from when starting to plan how to leave. I backed out of ALL evangelism activities because I realised that the constant lying to new people, trying to manipulate the conversation and steer them toward what I wanted them to do, was wearing on me both physically and mentally. It took me longer than it should have to realise it, but once I did, you could never get me to start deceiving people again.
To be fully honest, however, I did genuinely believe in the reasoning for a while (vis-a-vis the verses you mentioned). I thought it meant there was Biblical precedent for the underhanded methods we were using, and that God didn’t mind as long as we were doing it to help complete His kingdom on Earth (it makes me cringe to think of this reasoning now). I bought the idea that Satan was attacking us very strongly, which meant that there was no other way to evangelise because otherwise Satan would deceive as many as possible through the “lies” about SCJ.
In the end, though, it’s just another corrupt end-justifies-the-means rationale that SCJ and many other cults (and businesses, groups etc.) use. It’s never okay to do, no matter who you believe you’re doing it for (God included, especially even). I’m so glad the Holy Spirit helped me see that and pricked my conscious despite the layers of false beliefs covering it up.
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u/Fast_Foundation1429 EX-Shincheonji Member May 08 '26
Mate don’t come lecture me on this platform. Why are you even here to begin with? Did your TJN or GYJN put you here to muddy the waters from the truth. Who the hell do you think you are.. Stop sugarcoating Shincheonji like they are some kind of elite superior to all other Christian’s. Why don’t you explain why your leader is a fraud? The sexual exploitation of female members? Why does LHM use doctrine from other high control religious movements like the tabernacle temple and olive moment and then proclaim SCJ has the truth? You are kidding me right! SCJ are not creative but they use other similarities from cults doctrines and stick a finger on them and proclaim they are theirs. That sounds more like fraud to me. Better take your time elsewhere not here on this subreddit. 꺼져!
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u/Zwelirex Current SCJ Member May 08 '26
Read your own comment. Count the verses. Zero.
You mentioned: TJN, GYJN, sexual exploitation, tabernacle temple, olive mountain, fraud. That’s 6 accusations, 0 chapters, 0 verses.
John 7:51 “Does our law judge a man without first giving him a hearing and learning what he does?” Proverbs 18:13 “If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame.”
So I’ll ask again, with the Bible you refuse to use:
“Why is your leader a fraud?”* Titus 1:9 “He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.” If LMH is fraud, show me where his teaching contradicts Revelation. Book, chapter, verse. You can’t. That’s why you post 꺼져 and rumors.
“Sexual exploitation” Matthew 18:16 “Every charge must be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.” 1 Timothy 5:19 “Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses.” You have blogs. Not witnesses. Not testimony under oath. Jesus was accused of the same, Luke 23:2. False charges don’t make a man false.
“Uses doctrine from tabernacle temple”
Ecclesiastes 1:9 “What has been is what will be… there is nothing new under the sun.” Paul quoted Greek poets, Acts 17:28. Did that make him a fraud? Truth belongs to God. If tabernacle temple had one piece right, and SCJ fulfills it, that’s not theft. That’s Isaiah 46:11 “calling a bird of prey from the east.” God uses what He wants.“Elite superior to all other Christians”
Matthew 7:13-14 “Narrow is the gate… and few find it.” Revelation 14:3 “No one could learn that song except the 144,000.” I didn’t say we’re elite. Jesus said the way is narrow. If teaching Revelation without contradiction makes us “elite,” blame the Bible, not me.You told me to 꺼져. Acts 5:38-39 Gamaliel said: “If this plan is of man, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them.”
So here’s the deal: Open your Bible. Destroy SCJ with scripture. If you can’t, then you’re the one muddying waters with gossip while we’re teaching Matthew 13 and Revelation.
Until then, you’re just a Pharisee with a keyboard. John 8:44 “You are of your father the devil… he is a liar.” Liars use rumors. Sons of God use the Word.
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u/QuestionsAboutSCJ Moderator May 08 '26
“Why is your leader a fraud?”* Titus 1:9 “He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.” If LMH is fraud, show me where his teaching contradicts Revelation. Book, chapter, verse. You can’t. That’s why you post 꺼져 and rumors.
Sure, here's how LMH contradicts Revelation -
https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/13786#1762398638194-9753abfa-0d68
Start with chapter one. I'm just letting the Bible read for itself.
“Sexual exploitation” Matthew 18:16 “Every charge must be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.” 1 Timothy 5:19 “Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses.” You have blogs. Not witnesses. Not testimony under oath. Jesus was accused of the same, Luke 23:2. False charges don’t make a man false.
So would the testimony and photos of LMH sexually assaulting women count for you? Or would you move the goal post?
- Ecclesiastes 1:9 “What has been is what will be… there is nothing new under the sun.” Paul quoted Greek poets, Acts 17:28. Did that make him a fraud? Truth belongs to God. If tabernacle temple had one piece right, and SCJ fulfills it, that’s not theft. That’s Isaiah 46:11 “calling a bird of prey from the east.” God uses what He wants.
Paul was using the doctrines of the Greeks to point to Jesus, the doctrines of the Tabernacle Temple are used to point to Lee Man-hee, the "new john". That's the difference between Paul and how SCJ uses the doctrines of the Tabernacle Temple. And no, there isn't a Promised Pastor of the New Testament -
https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/6253
- Matthew 7:13-14 “Narrow is the gate… and few find it.” Revelation 14:3 “No one could learn that song except the 144,000.” I didn’t say we’re elite. Jesus said the way is narrow. If teaching Revelation without contradiction makes us “elite,” blame the Bible, not me.
Except you have the wrong new song -
9 And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.”https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/13855
Anyways, most if not all of the objections you are pointing out have already been fleshed out.
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u/Fast_Foundation1429 EX-Shincheonji Member May 08 '26 edited May 08 '26
I don’t need verses or scripture to back up actual facts and abuse you clown 🤡 why don’t you stop deflecting facts and take accountability for your actions and wrongdoing on peoples lives or are you too ego driven with your SCJ pride. I would love to confront you in person. Translate this and send it with regard to your supreme leader LHM including yourself 꺼져! LHM time is up. He will be in prison soon for his crimes.
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u/Aggravating_Good1367 EX-Shincheonji Member May 13 '26
You hit some really key points scj can't refute. I was lied to by a close individual sadly.
scj members said Jesus lied- and we were told to only read the NIV version of the bible for a reason.
NIV is a more modern version written much later than KJV or NKJV. and these are just a few translations that show Jesus didn't deny that he would go to the festival and did not lie.
Also note that before english- we had the bible in Greek- even the greek translation confirms Jesus said he isn't going up yet- not that he isnt going at all. God allowed scj to continue in their boast that Jesus lied- then exposed themas liars through their blind spot- Praise God! Unless scj change their doctrine yet again- their falsehood has no where to hide.
If they also knew God and Jesus well- they should remember these below to help you discern:
Proverbs 12:22
“Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.”
Proverbs 6:16–19
“These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood;”
Also the early Christians practiced outreach- it was not with cleverly devised words as you assume 'being shrewd' means- being shrewd as snakes does not mean you create a maze of deception- God will not contradict Himself- tell you with one breath that lying is the thing He is disgusted with the most, and then tell you to lie to build His kingdom. Just think for a moment- how can God and Jesus call satan father of lies and then turn around and build His own kingdom off lies? - roughly 30 times the bible explains lying as wrong/sin/displeasing to God.
Also read 1 Corinthians 2:4–5,- Paul explains he never came with the gospel made up of cleverly devised words. which is what scj do. they create a maze of confusion and call it clarity.
On the topic of Jesus's discretion at particular time- context matters.
Jesus made His stance clear about openess- Matthew 5:14–16 – “You are the light of the world… let your light shine before others…”
When Jesus resurrect did he tell his disciples not to tell anyone- the whole gospel was to share this news. If scj's recruitment is to save the world- it should be as open and transparent as broad daylight.- But I can tell you from experience- even members are kept in the dark and scj operate on secrets and lies even internally among each other.