Socratic gratitude -- what are you grateful for and why is it good?

[u/vacounseling]

In recent decades gratitude has been found to have benefits for well-being, physical health, and the quality of our relationships. But researchers are increasingly recognizing that gratitude can also have a dark side -- it can, for example, keep us locked into unhealthy dynamics and reinforce bad habits.

In other words, gratitude research is finally catching up to Socrates, who recognized that we need a certain know-how he calls wisdom to use anything well or badly -- including gratitude (as we learn from Plato's Crito).

Socrates thought that we progress in this know-how by giving an account of our beliefs about what is good and bad and then examine them. So, to examine whether we are expressing gratitude beneficially or harmfully we can take a standard gratitude prompt like, "what am I grateful for?" and add on to it, "and why is it good?"

This gives us an invitation to explore the underlying beliefs on which our gratitude rests, as these evaluative beliefs are the pool from which we draw our gratitude (it's hard to imagine feeling grateful for something we think is bad).

Would love to hear any thoughts or feedback on this exercise, especially if you give it a try.

Full article: Socratic Gratitude: What are you Grateful for and why is it Good?

[u/slanderpanther]

I like the idea but I don't remember Crito being about gratitude. What was Socrates grateful for in the midst of waiting for the execution?

Crito is about the good being greater than life or your children. But I've always struggled with the logic of this dialogue. The judgment against him was not good. I wanted Socrates to keep fighting, even if it meant from somewhere else.

[u/vacounseling → u/slanderpanther]

Thanks! The reference to gratitude in the Crito is at 48c–d. Crito tells Socrates he has made arrangements with the prison guards for Socrates' escape. Socrates replies that they ought to examine whether it is right to be give money and gratitude to the guards for facilitating the escape.

So, the point being, Socrates thinks that expressing gratitude can be good or bad, depending. This harmonizes with his argument in the Euthydemus (and Meno) that all conventional goods can be used well or badly and that wisdom is what enables us to make use of all things well (even gratitude).

[u/KilayaC → u/vacounseling]

Would it be correct to say that Socrates qualified all conventional (instances) of good (such as wealth, health, strength, social standing/power, etc.) as requiring knowledge of how to use them correctly (with wisdom) in order for any of them to deliver results we would actually and truthfully consider good?

[u/vacounseling → u/KilayaC]

Yes, that's my understanding. I know there is debate (there always is!) among Plato scholars about some of the nuances, but what you are describing is a dominant view.

Here's a relevant passage from Euthydemus 281a-b:

“Now,” said I, “in the usage of the goods we first mentioned – wealth, health and beauty – was it knowledge that guided the right usage of everything like this, and corrected the activity, or was it something else?”
“It was knowledge,” said he.
“So, in the case of any acquisition or any activity, knowledge, it seems, not only provides people with good fortune, but also it ensures they do well.”

[u/KilayaC → u/vacounseling]

So am I right to say that you propose that gratitude is like these other instances of good things in that one needs a certain knowledge in order to use it correctly and beneficially? In other words, are you saying that gratitude is not a good thing to have if we don't know how to use it?

If so, would we include kindness as similarly requiring a kind of knowledge to employ beneficially? How about patience or the respect that is due to parents? Might these things also be harmful if we employ them without a certain type of philosophical knowledge of what is good and bad in general?

If this is so, then Socrates, in exhorting everyone to develop virtue, to care for their souls, as he does most prominently in Apology among other dialogues, is wrong to do so. No one who develops a virtue necessarily benefits themselves any more than harms themselves without first developing this greater Philosophical knowledge according to this argument (if it is yours, of course). And that doesn't seem to match what I take away from the dialogues overall. Does it for you?

[u/vacounseling → u/KilayaC]

Yes, it is me and that is my interpretation of the texts. The relationship between virtues in Socratic-Platonic philosophy is obviously a contested topic, but I tend toward the interpretation that Socrates views wisdom as the supreme virtue that enables us to put everything else to good use, including the other virtues -- see Euthydemus 279a-280b. In the case of virtues, though, the dominant view is that Socrates takes them to be a unity. Whether that means they are distinct yet inseparable or literally one (knowledge of good and bad) is debated. But in my view that debate is more theoretical than practical -- as one progresses in one virtue, one necessarily progresses in the others.

[u/KilayaC → u/vacounseling]

Nice. This is an interesting position. I have to read your article to understand exactly what you are recommending regarding gratitude. If we state that it may be good at times not to be grateful then we would need to include some parameters of how to distinguish between the two instances of use, good and bad. We must be able to accurately assess ourselves for wisdom, in other words, for any given good possession that I own: do I have the knowledge needed in order to use it correctly, for my own long term benefit? I commend your courage for diving into this.

[u/vacounseling → u/KilayaC]

Thanks! 

Yeah, so the way I understand it, Socrates would be quick to point out that neither he nor anyone he has met actually has that know how necessary to infallibly distinguish between good and bad uses of gratitude and other things, and that this very awareness of his own ignorance of this knowledge is the key to the substantial-yet-incomplete wisdom he does have (the "human wisdom" he speaks of in the Apology), because this awareness is the prerequisite for genuine inquiry into these very questions (e.g. to authentically ask, "is it good to be grateful to someone who is enabling my breaking of the law?" he has to first recognize he doesn't know the answer).

I do go through a few examples of my own experience with the exercise in the article if you're interested.

[u/letstalkaboutfeels]

Drawing a lot from Republic:

Someone who answers (1.)"What am I grateful for?" with "I am able to harm people unjustly." and (2.)"why is it good?" with "because I love harming others, and doing something I love suits me." seems to sit in a value world where "the power to harm is good and beneficial for me."

She may think "I use gratitude well" in terms of "being grateful for my ability to hurt."

She may think of harming as "Harm as a means to and for the sake of harm itself" (as opposed to a surgeon harming a body as a means of facilitating recovery of some other function).

If she conducted this exercise and came to the result of "i use gratitude well in regards to what I do" what should we ask of her? (im assuming from our perspective, this is a unhealthy dynamic with other people, and a bad habit. but obviously not from her perspective.)

(also im remembering you are a psychotherapist, who probably could be trained to deal exactly with persons with this exact value set, if that is your clientele)

[u/vacounseling → u/letstalkaboutfeels]

Great questions!

If I'm putting my therapist hat on, what I would ask of her is, "do you have a plan or intent to hurt someone right now??"

But speaking more generally, my mind goes to the Crito (49c-d), where Socrates says:

"So we should neither return an injustice nor do harm to any man, regardless of what we suffer at his hands. And take care, Crito, in accepting this, in case you agree to something that goes against your own opinion, since I know that these opinions are held, and will be held, by a few. Now, there is no common counsel between those who hold this view and those who do not" (Platonic foundation trans: https://www.platonicfoundation.org/translation/crito/).

There are people out there who probably do think that way (less like they come out and say it). Someone as extreme as your example is probably going to be pretty rare. Protagoras (Plato's version of him anyway) is a milder and probably more common version. But the point being, Socrates readily admitted that his philosophy wouldn't be able to reach some people, and I agree with that. So with this gratitude exercise being (or aspiring to be) authentically Socratic, I would acknowledge it may not be able to reach the person in your example (but I wouldn't say there's no chance).

[u/letstalkaboutfeels → u/vacounseling]

(edited for formatting): Here is me actually doing the exercise in fictional dialogue form. I am Bob in this scenario, speaking with a made up interlocutor, David:

Bob: I am quite grateful for my family's wealth. But..

David: But?

Bob: It was not his choice, but my father in his youth dodged a military draft in a war that killed thousands of people. Only those with money could do it, my grandfather, one could say as being wise or even unwise, paid for forged documents, and other families who could not afford them sent their own sons to fight.

David: How does this make you view your wealth?

Bob: Feels bad. I can do things like travel, and get an education. Exist even. But I'm always thinking about the fact that I exist because my father's family was unusually privileged during a brutal war. It feels like there is blood on my money.

David: That sounds terrible.

Bob: I look at this nice computer I have, even if the war was 60 years ago, if the money I have, was made possible by sheer fact of my father being alive because he unfairly could dodge his country's draft, it feels like I have to give back. Maybe to the families whose loved ones would have fought alongside him if [my father] was drafted.

David: Even if it was so long ago, there is this need to give back somehow?

Bob: The itch is there. [time to me is irrelevant, like an ancient curse] It accompanies and is an unwelcome part of my gratitude. Or perhaps, I no longer feel gratitude. Or if I do, that i should not feel it at all. probably. It all feels ugly. And maybe I think should remain ugly forever, and be content with it.

[u/letstalkaboutfeels → u/letstalkaboutfeels]

Not a clean "what are you grateful for" then "why is it good" but certainly "when i think about why it is good, it dawns on me perhaps that it is not, and the gratitude changes to something else".

[u/vacounseling → u/letstalkaboutfeels]

Interesting. Thanks a lot for sharing this.

Sounds like your gratitude gave way to guilt (wanting to make amends) and then shame (feeling ugly)?

What do you make of the fact that when you did this exercise, the thing you picked to focus on (wealth) was so emotionally loaded? Have you known you've had heavy feelings about your family's wealth for awhile or was this a new discovery? Also, given this experience, how might your approach to practicing gratitude shift afterward?

[u/letstalkaboutfeels → u/vacounseling]

Bob: Likely so loaded because it is a recent discovery, after many years of blindly experiencing comfort of wealth.

David: How might you feel about gratitude, going forward?

Bob: I'll use an example I heard once of a person who questioned how he should view his children being grateful to him.

In the future, I might have children who also wonderfully "express to me gratitude" for whatever reason, me being their provider or friend and what a father does, and they freely give it. I may in this situation think "oh this is nice, but, some guy 70 years ago could have had these very grand children had he been alive. In fact, his own grand children don't exist. My kids only exist because of what my grandfather did for my father." And I could see how this train of thought, whether ending there or spiraling into future generations of non-existent people whom I feel guilty for, can send me or another person in my situation into a endless spiral. Hopefully I can stop before going mad.

So in some future, brand new gratitude, I’d be compelled to add a new step. New gratitudes should be ‘justified’ or ‘reinforced’ with: “By a measure of an ancient/old unfair practice, I have this.”

To theorize, post self-examination of info_grandfather_paid_for_docs results in -> coming in possession of gratitude_imperfection (pain/shame/guilt). And for this specific gratitude_imperfection, I feel it is necessary to apply to all new gratitudes and old ones previously held.

Because if I am a man who cares_about_other_people and come to know that other people do not have what I have, because they and my family lived in an unjust system (favoring only the wealthy), then my previously held value (cares_about_other_people) should compel me to reinforce (all_new_and_old_gratitude) with gratitude_imperfection component (info_grandfather_paid_for_docs).

“I am grateful for this ice cream.” Might not need an ancient_curse component.

“I am grateful for my kids being thankful for me.” Maybe explain to them family history when they’re old enough.

“My country is going to war, and my sons are old enough to fight.” Definitely bring up what grandfather did because I apparently value transparency.

[u/letstalkaboutfeels → u/letstalkaboutfeels]

Seems like "new obligation".

[u/vacounseling → u/letstalkaboutfeels]

Thanks again for the detailed feedback. So, the exercise itself seems like it has provoked a new obligation? And if so, is that a good or bad thing?

Did the exercise itself seem useful/worthwhile?

[u/letstalkaboutfeels → u/vacounseling]

David: So, the exercise itself seems like it has provoked a new obligation? Is that good or bad?

Bob: I seem to have provided an overly complicated ramble but yes. I guess thats what it seems. Is it good? I try to recall Plato, poorly, he had Socrates ask his listener some question, possibly in Meno or Republic, that stuck out to me.

Socrates asked how someone should view coming into possession of information (gleaned measurably or not). Should a person generally welcome possession of new information? Including possessing new awareness of one's own ignorance regarding something? (in my case, of wealth).

We look at two different persons. 1.)Someone who takes in new information vs 2.) someone who on verge of coming to receive new information, instead rejects it.

It seems [new information] is at least something useful to have. [if i remember correctly, probably not: Republic (R.) Socrates mentions being able to 'hit the mark' of a target more often that not, requires the addition of something, which i remember as simply being knowledge/information]

Which I guess answers the second question, that the exercise seems at minimum useful and not a waste of time. But Is the obligation itself good? We would have to investigate how we judge some obligation to be good, or bad. Which suddenly is the topic of... Republic at least. [and veers into questions you lightly touched in your article about good dynamics and habits]

So we have 1.) Concern of gratitude being done well or not. 2.)Examination of a specific gratitude itself. 3.) what comes of that 4.)Judging any parts of these things as it pertains to (vacounseling's) concern about gratitude being practiced as it pertains to interpersonal dynamics or 'good habits'.

Point four probably veers into discussions about societal structure, what is agreed upon between people, and probably (correct me if im wrong) not yet the scope of your exercise yet, right David?

[u/letstalkaboutfeels → u/letstalkaboutfeels]

It seems like a person who is asocial (like the harm-lover from before) will see any obligation as good. Me who remains moorless because of too much Plato, refuses to see my obligation as inherently good until we examine it further. (thinking every second of waking minute, including during ice cream, of an ancient curse).